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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paper Street Soap Company
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    2,304
    I had a service call once in January. Entire K-Mart was 50 degrees.

    Head up to the roof access and notice that EVERY UNIT ( 19 ) is in free cool.

    Call the 1800-novar number and get some guy NOT in Houston, give him the store number and ask him what temperature does he think it is in Houston right now.

    A couple of taps and he tells me 72 with low humidity......

    Ahem....I tell him it's 44 degrees and rainy..

    A couple of taps and all 19 units one by one go into heat. Pretty cool but still stupid.

    We dont need economizers in Houston.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,381
    I can say i would take an economizer in an L series Lennox any day of the week over any other type. the majority of issues i find on them is enthalpy sensors which are cake to diagnose & not so hard on the customers pocket .. The actuators are solid & while I've found defective ones, between the old Bellimo & now Honeywells, it isn't very often at all. what i refer to as the more "basic" style economizers that we see in many different brands like W7212s with M7215 actuators are not near as reliable. But then again not everyone can have a Lennox L as the world isn't perfect lol

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    799
    I love the L series Lennox economizers as well. A whole lot of economizers in commercial settings here are also used to meter make-air. I think about 20% minimum is required in certain circumstances. Speaking of the L-Series, I have one customer whose board is showing the code for "enthalpy sensor problem". I have not looked in to it yet since the unit is working fine and I am busy. When I have some time to go back up there, how do I test it out? I don't even know where it is! I have never looked for it.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by matt1124 View Post
    I could go either way but I sure wish plumbers would take their vents higher when it's obvious what's going to sit on that curb next to it. Too often I have to stick a tall piece of PVC pipe over the little stub they left to keep the economizer from pulling in bathroom odors.
    I have pictures of some of those drain vents pretty close to unit intakes, I thought that would be HVAC 101.

    Quote Originally Posted by carmon View Post
    100% of new calls on roof tops the economizers do not work... and 100% of the time customer will not repair due to cost..... makes sense to have an economizer in Winnipeg as 40 below gives you ample free cooling
    Really 100%?!?!? What usually breaks? The motorized dampers? Controls? Are most bad ones differential entropy or fixed temp or does it not matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    They are CLIMATE DEPENDENT.

    Honestly if you one in my neck of the woods you know someone got shafted and sold an economizer that they'll never use.
    Yeah, I am down by the beach where it is around 65 F-70 F at 40%-50% humidity year round.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paper Street Soap Company
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    2,304
    Quote Originally Posted by hcong View Post
    I have pictures of some of those drain vents pretty close to unit intakes, I thought that would be HVAC 101.



    Really 100%?!?!? What usually breaks? The motorized dampers? Controls? Are most bad ones differential entropy or fixed temp or does it not matter?



    Yeah, I am down by the beach where it is around 65 F-70 F at 40%-50% humidity year round.
    San Diego is nice, Berkely too. Too bad the libz jacked that State up. It's a shining example of how not to run local and state governments.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    San Diego is nice, Berkely too. Too bad the libz jacked that State up. It's a shining example of how not to run local and state governments.
    You might be happy to know San Diego is fairly conservative... 3 Republican Congressmen and 1 Democrat. Current mayor is Republican also.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    18,616
    If your temps never go below 65, I don't think you are a good climate candidate for economizers. I look for temps of 57 and lower for at least three months out of the year.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

    AOP Forum Rules:







  8. #34
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    If your temps never go below 65, I don't think you are a good climate candidate for economizers. I look for temps of 57 and lower for at least three months out of the year.
    Well our actual ASHRAE temps are 38 F winter and 83 F summer but we have low humidity and I can wear sandals and a tshirt year around with maybe a sweatshirt in the morning. I always see 65 to 70 F personally.

    The thing about us is most people just open their windows and doors anyways. So if you are on the coast all we have to do is exhaust the indoor air and let in the cool filtered sea air.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    22
    Great way to save some dough and keep the co2 down in a crowded building. But have mercy on those filters!

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    5,551
    Because economizers deal with enthalpy the question is in terms of total heat and what's better for the return air. Many times a rather warm but dry return air makes more sense.
    A lot of startup crews don't seem to want to bother setting them up right. This is especially true where mechanical contractors leave all that tech stuff to the T&B guys and they just have to verify operation.
    Tracers work both ways.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    18,616
    Quote Originally Posted by hcong View Post
    Well our actual ASHRAE temps are 38 F winter and 83 F summer but we have low humidity and I can wear sandals and a tshirt year around with maybe a sweatshirt in the morning. I always see 65 to 70 F personally.

    The thing about us is most people just open their windows and doors anyways. So if you are on the coast all we have to do is exhaust the indoor air and let in the cool filtered sea air.
    Many of our stores have a mandate from their Corporate to have the doors open, and often, especially in the so-called "outlet" malls.

    If you can get away with warmer, dryer air, go for it. That's why the logic module has A, B, C, and D.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

    AOP Forum Rules:







  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    51
    I'm in the midwest, prime area for economizers. They are theoretically beneficial, as explained by others a few posts back not only do they provide free cooling, but provide outside air for IAQ. What's unfortunate is most customers do not understand the benefit of them, and won't repair them if anything goes wrong -- even with a well illustrated explanation. They just don't seem to have it "in their budget."

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    831
    Quote Originally Posted by hvac wiz 79 View Post
    I can say i would take an economizer in an L series Lennox any day of the week over any other type. the majority of issues i find on them is enthalpy sensors which are cake to diagnose & not so hard on the customers pocket .. The actuators are solid & while I've found defective ones, between the old Bellimo & now Honeywells, it isn't very often at all. what i refer to as the more "basic" style economizers that we see in many different brands like W7212s with M7215 actuators are not near as reliable. But then again not everyone can have a Lennox L as the world isn't perfect lol
    Of course they're easy to diagnose! On the newer L series units you pop open the cover of the control panel and the unit will tell you exactly whats wrong

    They are pretty easy to diagnose. Attempt to change the minimum position or enthalpy setting on the module and if it doesnt respond theres your first clue somethings gone.

    IMO ive seen more economizer related problems than actual mechanical side problems. Units opening the econo on days that are too warm and running mechanical at the same time, and units freezing up because of stuck econos that end up closing off the return and only drawing in outside air....until the screens plug up and then the unit just freezes. Im from the great white north so we may see up to 4 months a year where free cooling will be called upon. I usually pressure wash my screens when Im doing a coil wash. Now if Honeyhole can just develop some better hardware id say that depending on the climate theyre a great idea. York should stop using them. Ive changed out so many York econo parts I joke that I should just get my apprenticeship book signed off by them.
    Get money, get paid.

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