Complete Energy Star Program or just do heat/air? - Page 2
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  1. #14
    Don't think we priced straight up Infinity without it being a heat pump. Is it really worth it if we might only be here 5 years? Please be patient with me...but to me heat is heat and air is air...I get that it might be more evenly heated or cooled, but what REALLY is the upside to it?

    By the way, I am rethinking the Navien tankless. Despite my neighbor plumber getting one I have read they are noisy. The upside is he can help me out in a pinch if I have a sudden problem..

    How much more efficient is the Infinity non heat pump than the non heat pump I was quoted? I think I needed the higher efficiency of heat pump to reach my 25% energy savings goal, that is where the tankless came in. I'm fairly sure I need either the tankless or heat pump to achieve 25% savings goal, if I don't hit 25% my rebate is 1000 less.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    May 2004
    south louisiana
    the upside is that in the winter you won't be using electric strip
    to heat all the time. when temps get to 30 degrees and stay there
    is when the hp switches to electric strip.

    if you've ever used an electric heater..the ones with the coils
    that turn orange as they heat up..that is the same type
    as elec strip heating. only larger.
    electric strip is the most expensive way to heat.

    savings with hp's are for winter. in cooling mode they
    are the same as ac with electric strip.

    I think in 5 years you'd save the cost to upgrade to hp

    decisions decisions..good that you are asking questions.
    to fully understand what and why your are purchasing
    is a good thing imo.

    best of luck.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  3. #16
    Our backup would be Ngas. We can get some real cold snaps here in the low teens, though last winter we barely touched the teens. That is why it would be so expensive, we'd have essentially 2 systems. I don't really see getting hp when our gas is 90% now and new would be 96%. We are in NJ, near Philadelphia.

    My friend, who is hvac trained, but does commercial says we should just wait until it breaks. Says he can help us fix it (but will he always be there?). He says the payback is too long to be worth it right now while it still functions fine. (several neighbors have has a/c problems and replacements recently-same age homes). The 0 percent, 10 year financing is attractive, but maybe he has a point.... I'm sure I could get extra insulated (go from R24 to R38 or so) and sealed for less than they are charging, so as of an hour ago I am considering getting prices for that and seeing what's what. My main holdup is that I cant' figure out how much of my 5k rebate is going in there pocket instead of mine due to mark ups. If I did each bit piecemeal I wonder if it would be a similar price (using home equity line or savings instead of finance...)

    Thinking one more quote from a smaller dealer who maybe has less markup and one for insulation only...then decide. Please understand, I know there is markup, but I am getting numbers way higher than neighbors NOT doing this. One neighbor got a lennox XC17 and I was surprised to see that, based on the price he said he paid. DOn't know yet what heat he got, but I peeked outside! I think a good heat because he got rebates...I hope it's not too rude, but I plan to as for details on price and models!

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Keokuk, IA
    If your only staying 5 years, probably not worth it. But make sure the Edge thermostat is set-up for dehumidify on demand. This slows the blower to dehumidify better.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    May 2004
    south louisiana
    I must have missed the part about the 90% gas furnace.
    by all means..keep it. unless it has failed there is no
    reason to upgrade for such small efficiency.

    good luck with the cheaper air sealing. if I had to charge
    for what I've done in my house today..just inside the
    would be several hundred dollars.
    the materials are cheap,
    its the difficulty to get to the areas to be sealed.

    just taking things out of the cabinets with the false boxing
    to seal them on the inside took several hours.
    can't fit a caulk gun in a cabinet very easily. so I had
    to use a different method.
    that's not counting the time I took to weed through
    and re-organize.
    you'll save money if you have the areas to be sealed cleared
    out so that whoever will have easy access.
    I charge extra to hump stuff around on my jobs.

    best of luck.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  6. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    You might want to ask about going ot a Infinity Furnace, controller and a 2 stage Infinity 17 AC unit. You can still have nearly the same humidity control with the edge, but the Inifinity is even better. I just had one installed, and with my local contractor at least, the increase in price after Carrier's rebates was very small over the Performance Series equipment you are looking it. It's still great equiipment. Actually that particular condenser is the quietest unit Carrier makes, only matched by the Infinity 21 and the Greenspeed on low speed is probably quieter.

    With the tankless, go for the "A" model with the 1/2 gallon buffer tank. As you have money, you can add recirculation loops and get instant hot water. Just a matter of typing in 1/2" pex as clsoe as possible to the fixture. I absolutely love mine. Hot water in about 1 second to the kitchen sink and 2-3 seconds to the others that I had access to. Just make sure you insulate all the water pipes. I have mine set ot 112F> Hot enough to dissolve grease off of hand washed dishes, but won't burn you and maximumized flwo throuh the unit (helps reduce deposits on the HE)

    I finally signed up for performance level equip, 2stage heat and a/c and the Navien. I asked about the Infinity now that the rebates are out but he claims it will still cost me another thousand to get it, even with the rebate. I doubt it should, but hey I signed the contract because i wanted to get the ball rolling. Decided the heat pump might be more trouble than it's worth with valves to break and defrost and so forth. With low gas rates I decided the Navien gives me more benefit based on my usage pattern for hot water.

    As for the Navien. I wish I could ask you how much extra a plumber might charge for the recirc line. I am getting the "A" model and an expansion tank (that was due to a communication error when I told him I wanted the one with the little tank.) Is the recir line something a plumber friend could easily add after install is complete? I'm sure it would be cheaper. Hopefully it wouldn't void any warranty. I have a 2 floor house with 2 baths and laundry on second floor. Navien will be in basement. Does it need to connect at the faucet or just in the basement where it tees off to the furthest fixtures?

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Keokuk, IA
    The recircualton line is pretty simple. 1/2" is plenty large enough. I think the pump is only pushing 2-3gpm. Just make sure to insulate all the hot water lines on the loop (they now essentially become a hot water storage tank). You can jsut run PEX (that's what I've been using in my home) which makes it easy to squeeze into tight spaces.

    One catch... do not use recirculation through pipes that are iron or galvanized (most common piping materials before 1950) They will errode and you wil lget a lot of rust anddebris that can plug up yoru heat exchanger or at manimum acceperate minerl deposits. If you must, plan on replacing them in a few years, and install an extra strainer and you might need to increase the recirculation pipe to 5/8 or 3/4".

    Ideally, to get the most out of recirculation, you just need to add a T as close as possible to the fixtures that you want instant hot water from. In pratice, if you can get within about 5-10' you're within 2-3 seconds wait tiem for hot water. The A model has the chekc valve and circulation pump built in. You just have to follow the instaructions and turn a valve internally, set a dip switch and configure it in the set-up menu's. The controlelr isn't the most intuitive, but the manual is pretty good.

    Then you want to set the water temp as cool as possible sicne you don't need it extra hot because of losses in the lines or because of storage capacity or preventing microbe growth. I set mine to 108F and rely on the heating elements in my dishwasher to bring it up to 130F for cleaning dishes. I like it also because it's a nice handwashing temeprature without needing to blend in cold water, and our toddler can't burn her hands at 108F. Some may like it even hotter for lundry or like super hot baths, so you might go up to 112-115F. Honestly, in our toilet closet downstairs, I should have bought a single hole sink and just installed a single faucet. We rarely use the cold water in that sink.

    For costs, I don't know what your plumbers charge there hourly. I still have one more 30' run ot install some day when we're ready to open up the kitchen ceiling for access. But I think it was a few hundred in materials (will vary) and I think my plumber put in about 1-1/2 days total on hte recirc lines. I had a full basement and good access to all of them.

    Plumbers can usually vary from $50-80/hour. So you could spend anywhere from $400-1000 to install the recriculation loop alone. It just depends. Personally, I'm in a small town, my plumer has reasonable rates, just charges me time and materials, I trust him, he very fast, efficient, does good clean work and it's usualyl less than I expected.

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