Appion vs C&D

[71CHOPS]

I still feel if you can't hold a vacuum you can't hold a vacuum (leaking). I doubt the can hold XXXX but can't hold XXX. Either the piece leaks or it doesn't. Not being able to hold 20, 100, 200 could be a leak or out gassing. Just my opinion but if you can "hold" a lower vacuum than someone else "holding" a higher vacuum you just a a cleaner set up or system is all.

not necessarily.....consider a 410a system that had been operating. 410 is 100% miscible with POE oil. Even though you can reach 200, or even 20 microns, your numbers will rise as the refrigerant boils out of the oil....which would not be a leak, but your numbers will rise. Also, don't forget, any rubber gaskets, seals, etc. will become saturated with refrigerant.....that will also boil off eventually. Also, POE oil being EXTREMELY hygroscopic, will have some level of moisture in it, however small. But that very tiny amount will eventually come out in an extreme vacuum....which will also raise your levels.


now, if you're talkin about bench testing NEW, never used products, making claims as to levels that can be achieved is a completely different thing.....just like everything else, you have the lab results, then you have what actually happens in the real world.

I will say though, this thread made me turn down buying a C&D yesterday....

[71CHOPS]

oops, just reread where you mentioned out gassing.

[itsiceman]

I will say though, this thread made me turn down buying a C&D yesterday....

I bought C&D when they were the only ones stocked at my supply house and they worked like they are supposed too when I switched to pulling cores for pulling vacuum thats when I bought the Appion.
I really don't remember them being that much cheaper than the Appion though.

oops, just reread where you mentioned out gassing.

After the reading settles out from stuff like out gassing there is still an acceptable rate of rise from reading
From a comment earlier about dunking stuff in water in that link they show size of leaks and how long it takes to form a bubble. You would have to have something sit a long time to pick up a leak that an electronic would go crazy on. Looks like the same thing for vacuum leaks. defiantly not as sensitive as an electronic detector. Thats what makes me believe there is no difference between 20 or 200 ..... the only thing that would change would be the rate of rise but insignificant IMO. Still believe if you can't hold 20 you can't hold 200.

[Chuck]

I bought C&D when they were the only ones stocked at my supply house and they worked like they are supposed too when I switched to pulling cores for pulling vacuum thats when I bought the Appion.
I really don't remember them being that much cheaper than the Appion though.

After the reading settles out from stuff like out gassing there is still an acceptable rate of rise from reading
From a comment earlier about dunking stuff in water in that link they show size of leaks and how long it takes to form a bubble. You would have to have something sit a long time to pick up a leak that an electronic would go crazy on. Looks like the same thing for vacuum leaks. defiantly not as sensitive as an electronic detector. Thats what makes me believe there is no difference between 20 or 200 ..... the only thing that would change would be the rate of rise but insignificant IMO. Still believe if you can't hold 20 you can't hold 200.

The difference between holding 20 microns for 5 minutes and holding 200 for 5 minutes could be the size of the leak.

You could have a leak in a vessel and be able to hold 200 microns for 5 minutes. But that leak would be too large to be able to hold 20 for 5 minutes. (assuming no off-gassing)

To me the difference between 2 ratings would be the size of the leak.

I believe that even the Appion would not hold that 20 Micron level 30 minutes, for example. Maybe Chris could clarify that.

[hvaclover]

what he said.

[itsiceman]

I've seen a video from the guy in the OP and his pump will pull down to zero so there

On a side note it sucks how his videos get taged so when I'm looking for one from someone like JimB. all his pop up about something not even close to what the search was about. If you're reading this could you tweek the tags alittle fritz unless you're making money off the videos then have at it I guess

I am sorry Fritz ..... You do not tag your videos like this....My mistake. There are a few other fellas there that list every tool on there truck among other things in that "tag" section so if you search for something else to watch on youtube that video with the weird tags comes up as the result. I apologize to you again. The tag thing still sucks IMO. I did watch the whole thing this time and can't wait for the C&D Chucky Cheezzz Brother

[hvaclover]

Chucky Cheeae new nick name for chuckcrj's Avatar

[itsiceman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmwqnqL3Hbg

[uzzo2]

I wanted to jump in here with a question. I have a YJ core tool and another one made by cliplight. They both have the 1/4" stubs on them, but the YJ has a schrader valve core in its stub. This is the one I hook my vacuum gauge to when I'm pulling a vacuum. I've been having trouble with both of them, so I was thinking of getting the appion ones. But I've been told that they don't have the schrader cores in the stubs. I generally remove my vacuum gauge after I'm done with the vacuum and add some gas to the system for some positive pressure and then replace the cores, remove the crt's and hook my manifold up to complete the charging. I wouldn't be able to do this with the appion tool without losing my vacuum would I, or am I just doing it wrong to start with?

[fritzhvac]

I wanted to jump in here with a question. I have a YJ core tool and another one made by cliplight. They both have the 1/4" stubs on them, but the YJ has a schrader valve core in its stub. This is the one I hook my vacuum gauge to when I'm pulling a vacuum. I've been having trouble with both of them, so I was thinking of getting the appion ones. But I've been told that they don't have the schrader cores in the stubs. I generally remove my vacuum gauge after I'm done with the vacuum and add some gas to the system for some positive pressure and then replace the cores, remove the crt's and hook my manifold up to complete the charging. I wouldn't be able to do this with the appion tool without losing my vacuum would I, or am I just doing it wrong to start with?

Hey uzzo2 !!!

With Ball Valves Shut OFF on Appions after you Achieve your Vacuum ,Remove both Vacuum hoses from Suction and Liquid sides , leave Gauge on and Switch it to PSIA , if it can withstand Positive Pressure , slightly crack Service Valve to Break Vacuum , once Gauge shows Positive Pressure you can remove or leave on , put Plunger and Core back into Body with Schraders not tighten completely , barely Crack Ball Valve to have Positve Pressure on that side of CRT , screw Plunger all the Way Down on Body once you Hear that little Hiss , CLOSE Unit Valve , open Ball Valve on Appion all the way , and Insert the Cores into the unit .

There are Several Differant Methods of this , to Insure No Loss of Vac or Introducton on Non - Condensibles !!!

Jim Bergmann has a Great Youtube Video on One Method :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGLYAmjWkvA&feature=plcp

[hvaclover]

wtf happened to the rest of the thread?

[uzzo2]

Hey uzzo2 !!!

With Ball Valves Shut OFF on Appions after you Achieve your Vacuum ,Remove both Vacuum hoses from Suction and Liquid sides , leave Gauge on and Switch it to PSIA , if it can withstand Positive Pressure , slightly crack Service Valve to Break Vacuum , once Gauge shows Positive Pressure you can remove or leave on , put Plunger and Core back into Body with Schraders not tighten completely , barely Crack Ball Valve to have Positve Pressure on that side of CRT , screw Plunger all the Way Down on Body once you Hear that little Hiss , CLOSE Unit Valve , open Ball Valve on Appion all the way , and Insert the Cores into the unit .

There are Several Differant Methods of this , to Insure No Loss of Vac or Introducton on Non - Condensibles !!!

Jim Bergmann has a Great Youtube Video on One Method :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGLYAmjWkvA&feature=plcp

Thanks Fritz, looks like a step was missing there maybe. After balling both sides off, I am assuming you hook a hose from whatever refrigerant tank you're using to one of the crt's you have hooked up on the unit you're working on, right? And then let some gas into the system for some positive pressure. I have a YJ 69086 vacuum gauge, the paperwork with it says it'll handle up to 450 psi I believe. But I try to never do it, I've had trouble with it as well, the sensor is very finicky. There is no setting on it as far as I know for PSIA. I will probably buy a blu-vac sometime in the near future. Thanks again my friend, I'm going to check out the video you included as well.

[fritzhvac]

Thanks Fritz, looks like a step was missing there maybe. After balling both sides off, I am assuming you hook a hose from whatever refrigerant tank you're using to one of the crt's you have hooked up on the unit you're working on, right? And then let some gas into the system for some positive pressure. I have a YJ 69086 vacuum gauge, the paperwork with it says it'll handle up to 450 psi I believe. But I try to never do it, I've had trouble with it as well, the sensor is very finicky. There is no setting on it as far as I know for PSIA. I will probably buy a blu-vac sometime in the near future. Thanks again my friend, I'm going to check out the video you included as well.

I think you are well beyond being on the Right Track , Yellow Jacket , and C&D's have fine Products , have Not used the Blu-Vac yet , will have to do some Video Review on that one as Well (LOL) seem to be Grade A , I use the Supco VG-64 has a PSIA on it !!!
Let me know how everything turns out !!!

[hvaclover]

how come you're home, Bluegrass?

I just came by the office to get some cold bottled water for me and Hvac5646, than we're having lunch and then....the Girly Club! Ahahahaha...I love running my own gig!

Gimme a PM later.

[uzzo2]

I think you are well beyond being on the Right Track , Yellow Jacket , and C&D's have fine Products , have Not used the Blu-Vac yet , will have to do some Video Review on that one as Well (LOL) seem to be Grade A , I use the Supco VG-64 has a PSIA on it !!!
Let me know how everything turns out !!!

I just watched the video fritz, I think I understand what you were talking about now. When you said to crack the service valve, I was scratching my head. I've always called them king valves, I'm assuming that the unit you were talking about and the one in the video came charged from the factory. Most everything I've been doing is repair where there is no gas in the unit. Even most of the new installs I've been doing have been dry R-22 units.

So in that case I would assume you would have to hook a hose to your refrigerant tank and let a little pressure in that way. That's the way I've been doing it, but I also unhook my vacuum gauge beforehand so that I don't take a chance of contaminating the sensor. I won't be able to do that with these crt's due to them not having a schrader core in them. But I'll try it and see how it works out.

[fritzhvac]

how come you're home, Bluegrass?

I just came by the office to get some cold bottled water for me and Hvac5646, than we're having lunch and then....the Girly Club! Ahahahaha...I love running my own gig!

Gimme a PM later.

Waiting for the Next Call in the A.C. !!! LOL ...

Stay Hydrated my Friend !!!