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Thread: Appion vs C&D

  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsiceman View Post
    If only one thing is different how could there be too many variables Clover?
    If you got one system on any given day less leaky equipment will pull faster than equipment with more leaks. If you chose tighter equipment you will pull faster than if you didn't. Could be anybodies stuff. Not brand specific. I laughed about the vacuum rating too when they said the only ones vacuum rated and thought well nobody felt the need to rate them before so I guess they could be the only ones vacuum rated LOL
    BTW where did you get the rating you posted on the C&D? Mine only came with a paper sheet with the part #'s in the little bag they were hanging on the shelf.
    Only have the mfg's word on....just like Appion...so i guess we are going on faith.

    B-ut one thing about the C&Ds are they are not making unsubstantiated claims where as Appion is saying they are RATED to 20 microns....and I still say SAYS WHO?

    What independent nationally recognized entity rated them and what is the written standard they are measured against?

    What Variables affect evac time: how aboutthings like how wet the system is, how long the line set, internal volume of eqip under evacuation, how many frickin' fitting on your evac tree, how long your hoses are, ambient atmospheric conditions, quality of pump oil, two stage rotary or pump or single stage, gas ballast or no gas ballast ect. ect.

    Your CRT will let you pump down just as fast as any other as long as it is maintained. The "leaky" comment you made....one CRT rated at 200 mics and one at 20 mics (assuming it's true) will hold vacuum until it reaches its aforementioned threshold.

    That's why all my vacs do not exceed 300 mics. But it does not leak from the git go just case it's rated at 200 mics.

    And a 20 mics rating does not guarantee you a faster evac. Time and system condition and the variables mentioned do.

  2. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
    Is fritz and hvac lover the same person?



    Yeah..I'm way cooler J/k Bill.
    HMMM ? move over Rover let the Real Fritz take over !!! LOL ...

  3. #42
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    Is fritz and hvac lover the same person?

    Quote Originally Posted by itsiceman View Post
    I highly doubt that
    FYI, Bill, this was what I was responding to.

  4. #43
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    You got a great dog there Fritz Wish you could take him with on calls
    “If You Can Dodge A Wrench You Can Dodge A Ball”

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
    Only have the mfg's word on....just like Appion...so i guess we are going on faith.

    B-ut one thing about the C&Ds are they are not making unsubstantiated claims where as Appion is saying they are RATED to 20 microns....and I still say SAYS WHO?

    What independent nationally recognized entity rated them and what is the written standard they are measured against?

    What Variables affect evac time: how aboutthings like how wet the system is, how long the line set, internal volume of eqip under evacuation, how many frickin' fitting on your evac tree, how long your hoses are, ambient atmospheric conditions, quality of pump oil, two stage rotary or pump or single stage, gas ballast or no gas ballast ect. ect.

    Your CRT will let you pump down just as fast as any other as long as it is maintained. The "leaky" comment you made....one CRT rated at 200 mics and one at 20 mics (assuming it's true) will hold vacuum until it reaches its aforementioned threshold.

    That's why all my vacs do not exceed 300 mics. But it does not leak from the git go just case it's rated at 200 mics.

    And a 20 mics rating does not guarantee you a faster evac. Time and system condition and the variables mentioned do.
    Are either saying they can hold vacuum at those levels I agree it is vague. I also agree it would be almost impossible to measure a difference and would hardly make a difference with speed that would matter at 20 or 200.
    “If You Can Dodge A Wrench You Can Dodge A Ball”

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsiceman View Post
    You got a great dog there Fritz Wish you could take him with on calls
    Thank You very much my Friend .
    I think the World of Him .
    When I had my Company Logo's put on the Truck I included him , Sarge's name is on the Passenger Door .

    He is Studying for his Journeymans !!! LOL ...

  7. #46
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    Thank you to Fritz and to HVAC-Talk for sharing your feedback, this is how we are able to continuously improve our products. Rest assured that we stand behind our products and our name; if you have an Appion product, it certainly better work the way that we claim!

    As for the problem discussed here, it only recently came to our attention that some cores were not being gripped by the tool, and it took some time until we could pinpoint the problem: the o-rings in the tip of the gripper.

    The same o-rings sit in the narrow section of the tip on all three of these:


    Inside the tip of most core removal tools (Appion and C&D both) are a pair of standard o-rings that are supposed to roll over the tip of the pin on the Valve Core, and firmly grip it. We accounted for the tolerance on the small side, to be sure that our tips wouldn't become "loose" or "sloppy" as we have seen in other tools.

    However, in recent batches of these o-rings, they have tended toward the larger side by up to 0.004", so small of a difference that it cannot be seen, but within the specifications of this o-ring. This is great for keeping things tight... but it got too tight. Further, we were only testing these tips on two brands of Valve Cores, which have stronger internal springs. Many of the Valve Cores in the field have weaker internal springs, so the pin is depressed much more easily by these tighter tips if the system is not under high pressure (350psi or higher).

    Once this was discovered, we began testing ALL of the grip tips on a FULL set of Valve Core brands, so the tips are properly removing cores again. This is now a permanent part of the Quality Assurance procedures on this product. We are also making changes to the tip that will allow for a more consistent fit that is not dependent on minor variations in o-ring dimensions.

    Many of the tools currently in the field have o-rings on the smaller side of specs, so they work as intended and claimed. However, if you have a tool that has these tighter o-rings and WILL NOT grip the core, get in touch with us so we can arrange an exchange. You can email us at support@appiontools.com, or call us at (303) 937-1580.


    We share your frustration that there are tools marked "Appion" out there that are not doing what they're supposed to, and we will do what it takes to make it right. Thank you again for making sure we were made aware of this, and sorry for any troubles this issue may have caused.
    Christian Pena - Appion Inc.

    For faster evacuation, C.O.F.F.: Clean Oil, Full Flow

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
    And tell me what listing agency or lab varied the 20 micron claim?

    I learned a long time ago not to take all the specs a mfg attributes to his product with a grain of salt. There is a lot of marketing strategy and broad, some times thin, claims made about a lot of instruments capabilities in our trade.
    Clover, I couldn't agree more about questioning manufacturer claims; I know for a fact that a number of manufacturers fudge certain details about their products, and we are constantly doing everything we can to be as up front, accurate, and relevant with our claims.

    Unfortunately, there is NO third-party agency or lab that is equipped to rate a core removal tool, so we are left on our own to identify relevant standards based on design goals and how a product should perform in the field. We decided to take as high a road as possible, and designed our rating/certification tests based on NIST certification procedures. Here's how:
    • We use NIST-certified vacuum gauges to obtain an exact reference (you might be surprised at how far off typical HVAC micron gauges are from an actual reading);
    • Connect the swivel side of the Valve Core Removal Tool to a vacuum-tight chamber (such as a clean recovery cylinder), and attach a vacuum-rated hose connection to a vacuum pump;
    • Connect the NIST-certified vacuum gauge to the other side of the vacuum-tight chamber;
    • Pull the vacuum to 20 microns or below;
    • Close the ball valve and verify that the vacuum does not rise over 20 microns for at least 5 minutes;
    • Disconnect the hose from the vacuum pump and verify that the vacuum does not rise over 20 microns while the hose port is exposed to atmosphere for at least 5 minutes.


    100% of our MegaFlow products are evacuated here in Colorado to verify that our production specs are met in accordance with this rating.

    In addition to this production test, we also take some of each production batch and operate them in ways designed to wear them down, and THEN perform the test again to verify that each batch RELIABLY holds a 20 micron vacuum.

    As far as how this test compares to other CRTs, the only reason we developed this product in the first place was that we could not find ANY other tool that could pass this test repeatably, not even below 2,000 microns. While some of them would work for a short while, all of them would eventually leak to atmosphere. This caused quite a few issues when we were developing our vacuum pump... so we made our own.

    We define our 20 micron rating as capable of HOLDING a 20 micron vacuum level (or better) without the vacuum pump connected.

    Quote Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
    And a 20 mics rating does not guarantee you a faster evac. Time and system condition and the variables mentioned do.
    You are correct, the 20 micron rating DOES NOT directly relate to speed, but it DOES ensure that you have a connection capable of the deepest vacuum you will pull, whether it's 50 microns or 300. Sure, 200 microns would be sufficient for many systems, but:
    • We are not aware of other tools that consistently hold a 200 micron or better vacuum;
    • Many systems require a 50-100 micron vacuum to be achieved;
    • The MegaFlow CAN hold a 20 micron vacuum, which is lower than almost all HVAC needs and ensures a leak-free tool.


    There are so many variables to getting a fast and effective vacuum, and the fewer uncertainties the better. It's always ideal to have the fewest connections possible, to reduce the risks of leaks. Further, you want to be sure those connections can handle a deeper vacuum than you will pull, which can be more challenging when you have ball valves with only ONE o-ring.

    If you can be sure that every connection you make, from the system to the hoses to the ball valves to the vacuum pump, then you'll spend less time diagnosing faults with the connections. That's the how and the why of the 20 micron rating.
    Christian Pena - Appion Inc.

    For faster evacuation, C.O.F.F.: Clean Oil, Full Flow

  9. #48
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    Third party agencies do exist that certify (or de-bunk as the case may be) the claims of HVAC mfgs product claims.
    May I suggest Detroit Testing Laboratories as the third part to verify your 20 micron rating. They have certified/verified the mfgs claims of several local hvac products. Some products gained acceptance (after DTL verified them) and went national. And other died on the vein. Thus is business.

    But to further emphasis the creds of DTL, their findings were acceptable to AGA
    as proof of product safety. And they are nationally recognized by the scietific and engineering community as the go to guys.

    I would like to see your product certified as any product SHOULD be to prove its reliability.

    You don't have to look far to do it either.

    BTW I pick up my first Appion product tomorrow.:grin2.it just won't be a CRT.

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
    Third party agencies do exist that certify (or de-bunk as the case may be) the claims of HVAC mfgs product claims.
    May I suggest Detroit Testing Laboratories as the third part to verify your 20 micron rating. They have certified/verified the mfgs claims of several local hvac products. Some products gained acceptance (after DTL verified them) and went national. And other died on the vein. Thus is business.

    But to further emphasis the creds of DTL, their findings were acceptable to AGA
    as proof of product safety. And they are nationally recognized by the scietific and engineering community as the go to guys.

    I would like to see your product certified as any product SHOULD be to prove its reliability.

    You don't have to look far to do it either.

    BTW I pick up my first Appion product tomorrow.:grin2.it just won't be a CRT.
    Which lab certified the C&D CRT to hold at 200 microns?

  11. #50
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    I bought my two core removers from CC Dickson, should i go through them or you ?
    Ive tried on two systems to remove some cores and it hasn't worked.
    You can't kiss death without it kissing you back. Death is a passionate kisser.


  12. #51
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    50 or a 100 micron vacuum....ok these systems do exist...but I don't think I would be using any CRT, as the ones i have worked on had back seating valves.

    Can't think of a single system that uses a schrader that needs a 50 micron evac if sealed-system service is required.

    But realistically the vast majority of system need only a three hundred mic evac.

    Like I said earlier, any thing lower is just bragging rights.

  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckcrj View Post
    Which lab certified the C&D CRT to hold at 200 microns?
    I already covered that earlier in the thread. You'll have to do a little reading but it's there.

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