Upgrade existing unit to communicating

[thaduck]

I installed a trane Hyperion tam7, xl950 w/relay panel, xl16i HP (all non-communicating) in my house before communicating Hyperion was availaible. I wanted communicating but was told at that time that trane was getting away from communicating systems by the a/c supervisor at the company I work for, which I'm know now is BS. Anyway I am curious what it would take to upgrade my system, by adding componants to convert my unit to communicating. What is the benefits of a communicating system?

[mcjo tech]

I installed a trane Hyperion tam7, xl950 w/relay panel, xl16i HP (all non-communicating) in my house before communicating Hyperion was availaible. I wanted communicating but was told at that time that trane was getting away from communicating systems by the a/c supervisor at the company I work for, which I'm know now is BS. Anyway I am curious what it would take to upgrade my system, by adding componants to convert my unit to communicating. What is the benefits of a communicating system?

I work on a number of Carrier Infinitys and Trane communicating systems.

You have a 16i heat pump which has a two stage single compressor. I believe it uses an unloading compressor but not sure about that.

My personal opinion is I don't see any real advantages to upgrading to a communicating system. Instead of converting it (if you don't already have one on your system) I would install a Honeywell Vision Pro 8000 set up properly for a two stage heat pump application.

At least then you don't have to pull new thermostat wiring when it stops communicating thru the old wiring.

[pacnw]

unless Trane can provide you with specific benefits, an upgrade is pointless!!!

my unit is communicating and after stupid things were "forgotten" in their stat that even basic stats have, I went back to a non-communicating set up and not regretted it once.

they cannot provide me with any efficiency benefit of communicating, only the possible diagnostic benefit.

[motoguy128]

The only thing gained is a little more control over airflows and equipment staging. IF the system is sized properly and you have a thermostat like a Honeywell Visionpro IAQ and it's wired to dehumidify on demand (as it should unless you like in a hot dry climate), then you will gain little with communicating.

I think hat XL950 you have is Trane's version of hte IAQ. SO if it's wired correctly, you already have a very good control system. Only a Infinity would improve equipment control any.

But the only remaining question is "is it being fully utilized, and/or configured optimally)

[mark beiser]

There is no point to "upgrading" to the communicating system.

With the 950 thermostat + relay panel you can set the thermostat up to have full control of the blower via PWM.

[thaduck]

Ok thanks everybody, I mainly do commercial refrigeration and hot side and got away from residential a/c.
Should be sized right, maintains temp pretty good and doesn't make it to 2nd stage very often. 5ton on 2300 sqft home built early 80s, single pane alum. Windows. Getting new windows later this year.
The 950 is the Comfortlink II color thermostat, I quess I was thinking maybe all I would have to do is add a couple boards to the HP and AH. I believe with communicating system there is better humidity control, by changing blower speed.
I have the thermostat setup (comfortR) where in cool the blower runs at 50% for 1 minute, then 80% for 7.5 minutes, then if needed unit will go to second stage 100%. The thermostat has a detailed status button, and I can see load value, blower % etc. the speed is sometimes 60% or 75% seems kind of random. I think it uses some type of calculation based on cph setting and load value to determine blower speed. I may be wrong but I think with communicating it will dehumidify on demand rather than just over cool.
Yes it is a single 2 stage compressor, I think it has an internal unloader, only has one set of terminals. There is no compressor insulator, did trane get away from that?
Condenser is a little loud at startup I have added the factory start kit, not sure if the noise is just the contactor latching or the compressor starting, after that it runs quiet.
Any advice on adding fresh air to closet unit, vent on roof or eve, type of damper, filter etc.
Sorry for being so long winded, and getting off subject.

[ahuskins]

There is no point to "upgrading" to the communicating system.

With the 950 thermostat + relay panel you can set the thermostat up to have full control of the blower via PWM.

I just have had a new Trane system installed. XL16i, XV80, Trane CleanEffects and ComfortLink ii.
On the original quote the XV80 was supposed to be a XC80. I met with the Trane rep and he said that there was virtually no difference in the two units. I am curious about the differences from an outsiders perspective. How much functionality do I lose, if any, by not having the communicating furnace?
I understand there is a fault in the communicating system which limits the advertised functionality of the CleanEffects unit at this time, but am I losing the ability to properly and efficiently dehumidify my home?
Can you possibly explain PWM?

[motoguy128]

You don;t have Comfortlink ii, unless you have an XC80. Was the XC80o or Comfortlink mentiond on you estimate.

Because of the XL16i's funcky wiring requirements, you lose the ability to dehumidify on demand without a communicting system. You can also customize the low circulating fan speed and some other airflow features I believe. The higher end XL950 thermostat has some more featurse as well but is only communicating.

The only way you can dehumidify is by overcooling or do something more more exotic like use a relay to force the unit to high stage when you want to dehumidify but keep it at a reduced airflow.

[ahuskins]

Yes, the XC80 was on the estimate and quote. They have installed the XV80. The Trane rep said that without the XL20i it was pointless to install the XC80 because communicating would not work without it.
I do have the XL950 Stat.

[motoguy128]

HE might be right. I just looked at Trane's website and the XL16i isn't communicating. That's interesting, because at my old house I have XL16 installed in 2008 and it was communicating then. But I guess that feature was removed.

That's really surprising. Trane continues to underwhelm me. ALL of their competitors have a communicating 16-18 SEER unit. Maybe it lets them hit a price point.

He's right then, you won't get anything out of the XC80 then.

Hopefully at least you init isn't oversized and the coil isn't oversized indoor. The XL16i is know to have poor dehumidification on low stage, so it will need long run times to maintain comfort.


Here's what I don't get. If the XL20i is communication and will most likely be sold with communicating equipment, then why doesn't Trane make the default airflow on low state on all of their furnaces 80% by default instead??? Totally baffles me. Seems like the XL16i was an afterthought. I bet they sell them 2:1 in volume over XL20i's.

[mark beiser]

but am I losing the ability to properly and efficiently dehumidify my home?
Can you possibly explain PWM?

If the relay panel between your XL950 thermostat and the system is wired correctly for variable speed blower operation, and the XL950 is set up correctly, you loose absolutely nothing, other than error reporting.

PWM is Pulse Width Modulation.
The blower in your furnace can be controlled by your thermostat, through the relay panel, by a PWM signal to the BK terminal on the furnace control board.

If it is wired/set correctly, the thermostat controls the 1st and 2nd stage cooling blower speeds, and dehumidification blower speed.
The airflow settings for each stage are done at the thermostat.

If you look at where the control wires connect to the control board in the furnace, there should NOT be any wires connected to the Y or Ylo terminals, and there should be a wire from the relay panel connected to the BK terminal in the furnace.
If there are wires connected to Y and/or Ylo, or wires connected to BK that also go to the outdoor unit, your system is definitely NOT wired to take advantage of the functions of the controls you have.

Even if it appears to be wired appropriately, there is also setup via the thermostat required.

[ahuskins]

Thanks, thanks, thanks! Mark, that is exactly the information I needed. Right now the de-humidification control on my stat doesn't do anything. It just displays the ID humidity. I will check the wiring on the relay panel for correct hookup. I live in Tennessee and its plenty humid outside. Indoor humidity seems to have stabilized at around 53%. The unit has no trouble holding correct temp using only 1st stage. I have noticed that the blower does seem to run a lot.
Adam

[mark beiser]

If the XL20i is communication and will most likely be sold with communicating equipment, then why doesn't Trane make the default airflow on low state on all of their furnaces 80% by default instead??? Totally baffles me. Seems like the XL16i was an afterthought. I bet they sell them 2:1 in volume over XL20i's.

The XL1800 and XL19i predated the XL16i by more than 10 years, but damn, how hard is it to make a f'in control board that will work with either setup without tying up the BK terminal so we can't use it for dehumidification mode?

[SoFlaDave]

You don;t have Comfortlink ii, unless you have an XC80. Was the XC80o or Comfortlink mentiond on you estimate.

Because of the XL16i's funcky wiring requirements, you lose the ability to dehumidify on demand without a communicting system. You can also customize the low circulating fan speed and some other airflow features I believe. The higher end XL950 thermostat has some more featurse as well but is only communicating.

The only way you can dehumidify is by overcooling or do something more more exotic like use a relay to force the unit to high stage when you want to dehumidify but keep it at a reduced airflow.

FYI the TAM7 uses DIP switches to differentiate between dual comps and unloading scrolls to match airflow so the BK terminal is free to be used for PWM input.

[mark beiser]

FYI the TAM7 uses DIP switches to differentiate between dual comps and unloading scrolls to match airflow so the BK terminal is free to be used for PWM input.

Yeap, about 5 years late on the air handlers, and still waiting on the furnaces.