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  1. #1

    Welcome to the 21st Century

    Its not the corporations that are reducing wages on a globalized scale.
    It is the Obama ,Trumka and the Bob King attached at the hip to leftist mantra.They know based on a global scale the wages and benefits have to be reduced.Every unionized manufacturing plant or assembly plant have already got the permanent downgrade.

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/ja...sotu-j28.shtml

    This was the basis of the restructuring,due to taxpayer bailouts.What he did not say—but what every auto worker and everyone who has followed Obama’s “restructuring” of the industry knows—is that the return of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler to profitability and the recouping of a fraction of the jobs that had been wiped out is based entirely on the abolition of decent wages and benefits. The basic wage scale is being cut in half and benefits such as pensions and health care are being gutted for the new generation of auto workers.
    FEN

  2. #2
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    Why should Obama and company not know the same thing as the right wing, right to work crowd know? Wages in America, and the artificially high standard of living, is pricing the country out of manufacturing. Forget running off for vacations every year and the Freedom 55 crap. Work as long and hard as your parents (maybe even grandparents with the younger folk) and be happy you have food on the table. This whole 'spread the wealth around' just makes for a lazy society.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

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    No, its the corporations.

    Obama and his buddies just brought to the unions what us non union folk have been experiencing for decades. Low wages, no pension, shi**y benefits.

    Business has been going that way in this country for a long time.

    Ive noticed another trend taking over manufacturing in the USA.... and that is temp workers.

    I see nearly as many if not more temp workers working in the factories I visit as I do long term employees. You will see long term employees sitting in supervisory or maintenance or administration but out on the floor the manufacturing workplace is becoming a sea of temp workers working for low wages, no real benefits, nothing but a weekly paycheck.

    Ive noticed a couple of places that even bring in a staffing agent and give them a workspace in plant to help facilitate the never ending rotation of temp workers into and out of the plant.

    Its all about profit and now the union workers are going to get to see what the rest of us have been putting up with for years.

    Im not against union workers or even unions..... they do their job in securing good wages and benefits for their people.....and that was...or is their job.

    I see nothing wrong with someone squeezing as much out of a business as they can in order to pay the employees a fair wage..... but then again.... I see nothing wrong with an employer squeezing all he can out of his employees so he can become even more wealthier.

    That is what america is all about.....squeezing, manipulating, skirting the laws... all in the name of putting more money in ones own pocket.

    Obama and them didnt force the auto industry into these new deals..... the auto industry could have just given up..... but they didnt...and they agreed to the governments proposals......and yes...some folks will come out like a bandit while others suffer from the deals.....

    But thats just buisiness as usual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corny View Post
    No, its the corporations.

    Obama and his buddies just brought to the unions what us non union folk have been experiencing for decades. Low wages, no pension, shi**y benefits.

    Business has been going that way in this country for a long time.

    Ive noticed another trend taking over manufacturing in the USA.... and that is temp workers.

    I see nearly as many if not more temp workers working in the factories I visit as I do long term employees. You will see long term employees sitting in supervisory or maintenance or administration but out on the floor the manufacturing workplace is becoming a sea of temp workers working for low wages, no real benefits, nothing but a weekly paycheck.

    Ive noticed a couple of places that even bring in a staffing agent and give them a workspace in plant to help facilitate the never ending rotation of temp workers into and out of the plant.

    Its all about profit and now the union workers are going to get to see what the rest of us have been putting up with for years.

    Im not against union workers or even unions..... they do their job in securing good wages and benefits for their people.....and that was...or is their job.

    I see nothing wrong with someone squeezing as much out of a business as they can in order to pay the employees a fair wage..... but then again.... I see nothing wrong with an employer squeezing all he can out of his employees so he can become even more wealthier.

    That is what america is all about.....squeezing, manipulating, skirting the laws... all in the name of putting more money in ones own pocket.

    Obama and them didnt force the auto industry into these new deals..... the auto industry could have just given up..... but they didnt...and they agreed to the governments proposals......and yes...some folks will come out like a bandit while others suffer from the deals.....

    But thats just buisiness as usual.
    We are a FREE MARKET ECONOMY. This demagoguery of all corporate entities is just left wing nonsense and a attempt to try and redirect blame away from the most incompetent president we've ever had.

    The libz were enamored with the hyped candidate Obama and now we're paying for it.

    Corporations are in the business to make money and to take the old GM template and use that as a yard stick to measure how corporations should treat their employees is ridiculous.

    Massive union contracts is one of the main reasons for GM's demise. Greedy unions that over the years kept increasing the legacy cost of every vehicle sold to over 3 grand. People getting benefits after retirement and pay until their death ??

    Its unsustainable. NO corporation or Country can offer that without eventually collapsing in on itself.

    GM used to be called " Generous Motors " by the people that worked and lived in Michigan.


    Obama's attack and this manufactured class warfare he's using to divide Americans because he cant run on his record isn't the fault of corporations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    Massive union contracts is one of the main reasons for GM's demise. Greedy unions that over the years kept increasing the legacy cost of every vehicle sold to over 3 grand. People getting benefits after retirement and pay until their death ??
    And the Managers of GM decided to go and give the unions what they wanted rather than saying it was unsustainable. And it was the same managers that decided not to fund the legacy costs in the costs of the vehicles that they were building nut rather push the costs to the future and pay as much to the share holders instead, might be something to do with executive compensation related to share prices.

    I guess blame can be directed to my financial adviser if I end up with retirement benefits till the day I die. I traded off cash in hand which I could go out and have a good time with for something that will keep me through retirement. I would think the workers at GM thought they were trading off cash in their pocket for cash in a retirement fund. Well at least that is how the companies I worked for in the past explained it to us dumb workers.

    So who was the irresponsible ones? The workers or the executives at GM?

    Obama's attack and this manufactured class warfare he's using to divide Americans because he cant run on his record isn't the fault of corporations.
    Manufactured class warfare? Where have you been? This divide is as old as the hills. And how is it a president's job to make corporations rich? Reduce their costs like lowering wages? Give them money (Oh wait, he did do that)? What is it he should have done to help corporations?
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    And the Managers of GM decided to go and give the unions what they wanted rather than saying it was unsustainable. And it was the same managers that decided not to fund the legacy costs in the costs of the vehicles that they were building nut rather push the costs to the future and pay as much to the share holders instead, might be something to do with executive compensation related to share prices.

    I guess blame can be directed to my financial adviser if I end up with retirement benefits till the day I die. I traded off cash in hand which I could go out and have a good time with for something that will keep me through retirement. I would think the workers at GM thought they were trading off cash in their pocket for cash in a retirement fund. Well at least that is how the companies I worked for in the past explained it to us dumb workers.

    So who was the irresponsible ones? The workers or the executives at GM?
    Who had the power to shut down that entire corporation on a whim ?

    Who threatened more and more strikes if corporate didn't cave into their demands ?

    GM workers trading cash out of their pocket ? Are you serious ???

    I will give you the opportunity to post what the average GM worker who typically came to work with only a HS diploma made hourly before their collapse.

    And compare that to other workers with the same education all over the US.

    They traded nothing. Thats the point and eventually it led to the collapse of the company.

    The Unions had Obama to bail them out at the expense of the bond holders because obama needed to keep that voting block in check.


    The same thing is happening in municipalities all over the US. Unfunded pensions that are dragging down entire cities because unions got greedy. Now the citizenry is paying for the state and local workers greed.

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    You're right. The use of pitting one class against another as a political tool is as old as the hills.

    You would think people would recognize it by now.

    Its not the presidents job to make them rich it's his job to get the hell out of the way and not demonize them for political gain while taking handouts at the same time.

    We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world.

    Bring corporate taxs down to ZERO and capital gains tax's down to 5%.

    Its how you get a economy off its ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    Who had the power to shut down that entire corporation on a whim ?
    And who has the ability to lock out workers? Been locked out myself.

    Who threatened more and more strikes if corporate didn't cave into their demands ?
    Suck it up big boy, that is bargaining. A sister plant of one I worked for went on strike, they thought because it was a 3 year old plant the company would not shut it down, they sold it lock stock and barrel and shipped it to China.

    GM workers trading cash out of their pocket ? Are you serious ???
    The people that bargain on the company side know the size of the pot of money that the workers are going to get. If the union wants more money to go in pensions, less goes into wages. You really do not know how this works do you?

    I will give you the opportunity to post what the average GM worker who typically came to work with only a HS diploma made hourly before their collapse.
    And I will not take it, waste of my time looking it up, it is not material to my point. My point is that the company execs. were negligent for years and thought they had the buying public to milk. Who cares what we pay the workers, where else will people go to get cars?

    And compare that to other workers with the same education all over the US.
    Again immaterial.

    They traded nothing. Thats the point and eventually it led to the collapse of the company.
    As I said, you do not seem to know how the pot is divided up. It was the executives that decided the size of the pot and when the bill had to be paid.

    The Unions had Obama to bail them out at the expense of the bond holders because obama needed to keep that voting block in check.
    You finally got one right.

    The same thing is happening in municipalities all over the US. Unfunded pensions that are dragging down entire cities because unions got greedy. Now the citizenry is paying for the state and local workers greed.
    Same thing goes, there is no reason the elected officials could not let the workers go out on strike. Oh the public would complain though. Well they would until they were told settling with the unions would cost them 20-30% on their taxes. The cities and municipalities did the easy thing, passed the buck down the road. Well the future is now.

    You seem to blame the wrong people, you should be blaming the ones that caved in to the unions. No backbone.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    You're right. The use of pitting one class against another as a political tool is as old as the hills.

    You would think people would recognize it by now.

    Its not the presidents job to make them rich it's his job to get the hell out of the way and not demonize them for political gain while taking handouts at the same time.

    We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world.

    Bring corporate taxs down to ZERO and capital gains tax's down to 5%.

    Its how you get a economy off its ass.
    I never liked him from day one.

    Sure those things will help the economy in the long term but where is the money going to come in to pay the government's debts and obligations? Where is the money going to come from that the money the government adds to the economy? You can reduce taxes but it has to be done over time so the economy does not suffer, and how is a president going to sell taking money out of the economy in a recession? Well that is a recession for the average person, corporations are doing well.

    (Reuters) - The Dow and the S&P 500 rose on Tuesday after strong earnings and upbeat outlooks from big manufacturers like 3M Co (MMM.N), but Apple's slide ahead of its results drove the Nasdaq down.

    Shares of Apple Inc (AAPL.O), however, reversed course after the bell when the iPad maker reported quarterly revenue that handily beat Wall Street's estimates. Apple's stock jumped 6.9 percent to $599 in extended trading after closing at $560.28, down 2 percent.

    The stock of the world's most valuable company has fallen in recent weeks after its huge run higher. At the close on Tuesday, Apple's stock was up 38 percent for the year - in contrast with earlier this month, when it was up nearly 60 percent for the year to date.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83M0BL20120424
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

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    Who is brainwashed......lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    And who has the ability to lock out workers? Been locked out myself.



    Suck it up big boy, that is bargaining. A sister plant of one I worked for went on strike, they thought because it was a 3 year old plant the company would not shut it down, they sold it lock stock and barrel and shipped it to China.z



    The people that bargain on the company side know the size of the pot of money that the workers are going to get. If the union wants more money to go in pensions, less goes into wages. You really do not know how this works do you?





    And I will not take it, waste of my time looking it up, it is not material to my point. My point is that the company execs. were negligent for years and thought they had the buying public to milk. Who cares what we pay the workers, where else will people go to get cars?



    Again immaterial.



    As I said, you do not seem to know how the pot is divided up. It was the executives that decided the size of the pot and when the bill had to be paid.



    You finally got one right.



    Same thing goes, there is no reason the elected officials could not let the workers go out on strike. Oh the public would complain though. Well they would until they were told settling with the unions would cost them 20-30% on their taxes. The cities and municipalities did the easy thing, passed the buck down the road. Well the future is now.

    You seem to blame the wrong people, you should be blaming the ones that caved in to the unions. No backbone.
    Suck it up ??? GM owes the American people 39 billion because unions got bailed out because of their political connections.

    Is that what unions are for now ? Thats what they have turned into now ?

    Tell the American not associated with auto workers union whos been out of a job for three years to suck it up.

    Maybe because Im not connected I can ne objective. EVERYONE but the UAW gets it in the you know what because theybgot greedy.

    You wont look anything up because it would prove my point plus you are the one that brought up out of pocket compared to retirement.

    Now your telling me its not relevant. I research EVERYTHING. I have not come to my political decisons lightly.

    The evil corpirate mantra is ignorant and so is the class warfare nonsense. People that buy into it are just naive.

    To give the government the power to select arbitrarily those who have succeeded and giving them the power to punish those people is irresponsible.

    They wont stop at the rich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    Suck it up ??? GM owes the American people 39 billion because unions got bailed out because of their political connections.

    Is that what unions are for now ? Thats what they have turned into now ?

    Tell the American not associated with auto workers union whos been out of a job for three years to suck it up.

    Maybe because Im not connected I can ne objective. EVERYONE but the UAW gets it in the you know what because theybgot greedy.

    You seem to miss my point. The unions did their job to get the best deal for their people. The management of GM, well they mismanaged GM.

    You wont look anything up because it would prove my point plus you are the one that brought up out of pocket compared to retirement.
    Again, whether a worker has a grade 5 education or if they are making $45 hr, $690 hr does not matter to my point. The unions work to get the best deal they can for their members. It is management's job to chart a way to insure the health of a company. They did not have the balls to do that and you instead blame the unions. They decide the 'compensation package' offered to the union (pay and benefits). They ignored the long term impact of what they were giving to the workers. So who is at fault?

    Now your telling me its not relevant. I research EVERYTHING. I have not come to my political decisons lightly.
    You seem to ignore management screwed up.

    The evil corpirate mantra is ignorant and so is the class warfare nonsense. People that buy into it are just naive.
    Who brought up the evil corporation and was it not you that brought up class warfare?

    To give the government the power to select arbitrarily those who have succeeded and giving them the power to punish those people is irresponsible.
    You should read some history. Government has had the power to selectively decide winners and losers since they wrestled the power from the King of England (or the French when they started chopping off heads, or any other government that dumped their monarchy).

    They wont stop at the rich.
    How much can they squeeze out of the poor?
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    You seem to miss my point. The unions did their job to get the best deal for their people. The management of GM, well they mismanaged GM.
    To be honest I think there is enough blame to go around and sure management made mistakes when they caved to excessive union demands. The Unions went from being a positive organization that protected workers rights and safety to an organization that strong armed GM into unsustainable employee benefits and pay.



    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    Again, whether a worker has a grade 5 education or if they are making $45 hr, $690 hr does not matter to my point. The unions work to get the best deal they can for their members. It is management's job to chart a way to insure the health of a company. They did not have the balls to do that and you instead blame the unions. They decide the 'compensation package' offered to the union (pay and benefits). They ignored the long term impact of what they were giving to the workers. So who is at fault?
    It "matters to my point". In the interest of proving that the UAW was complicit in the eventual failure of GM. You cant tell me the Unions were that naive. That their pay and benefits compared to anywhere in the US or the world was grossly out of balance for typical compensation for that type of worker.

    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    You seem to ignore management screwed up.
    You seem to lack objectivity. Obviously they both had a hand in it. We need management, we don't need unions.



    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    Who brought up the evil corporation and was it not you that brought up class warfare?
    I brought it up and continued to bring it up after someone, maybe you replied that class warfare has been a round for ages. Class division is NOT whats wrong with America.


    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    You should read some history. Government has had the power to selectively decide winners and losers since they wrestled the power from the King of England (or the French when they started chopping off heads, or any other government that dumped their monarchy).
    This made me laugh. I am a student of history and " read it" incessantly. I'm not sure what you mean by the wrestling comment or I would respond.




    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    How much can they squeeze out of the poor?

    The poor ???? The class divide can never be bridged let alone by forced equality or social justice.

    It would take dictatorial powers for a government to act out on the inequities of a society. No amount of taxation, wealth redistribution or forced corporate participation could ever make the human condition "fair"

    I think we share the same fundamental political philosophy so this is not directed at you.

    If you gave the government the power to pile up all the wealth in one place and then actually equally distribute it in a short amount of time the people that had nothing would be poor....again and the people that were rich would be rich again.

    Leftist ideology is fundamentally flawed in the fact that it actually assume that we are all equal.

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