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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebCTRL View Post
    Actually if you read it objectively, the following is what follows your portion quoted above,

    "Why has Heritage changed its mind?

    Stuart goes on to give four reasons why he and Heritage no longer support the mandate: (1) a mandate isn’t necessary because “the new field of behavioral economics taught me that default auto-enrollment in employer or nonemployer insurance plans can lead many people to buy coverage without a requirement;” (2) “advances in ‘risk-adjustment’ tools are improving the stability of voluntary insurance,” as illustrated by the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program; (3) Obamacare’s mandate forces people to buy comprehensive coverage rather than catastrophic coverage; (4) Obamacare’s mandate is unconstitutional.

    Stuart, of course, is perfectly entitled to change his mind, and the reasons he gives for having done so are ones I’d agree with. (I would also point out, as I do repeatedly in this space, that the “free rider” problem is grossly exaggerated, and that an individual mandate actually increases free-riding.)"
    Stuart left out the most important reason he changed his mind......his plan is now a Dem. plan



    And as far as apples and oranges, they are both different but still both the same. Comprehensive (ObamaCare) versus catastrophic coverage (Heritage) is a pretty big difference in scope and resultingly in gov't reach and price of the implemented plan.
    A matter of degree not substance.


    We might well also consider that comprehensive healthcare will prevent many catastrophic health events.
    Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.

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  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    So I stand by my original question. Will the Heritage Foundation apologize for suggesting the individual mandate? For a more complete synopsis I will post a link from Forbes so that the wing nuts might become educated regarding the previous attempts of the GOP and conservatives to SOCIALIZE health care.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...idual-mandate/
    So are you saying that Obama is trying to SOCIALIZE healthcare...?? Sounds great....Heritage has backed off, seeing their mistake, Hussein has not.
    Tough times don't last...Tough people do.

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  3. #29
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    The definition of what is a right has never even been debated and established. Therefore, it is not clear that mandated government health care is not clearly defined as a right as claimed by the current administration.

    I also find it interesting that when the administration and the democratic controlled congress was pushing for this they went wild with how we need to take care of all the uncovered immediately. It was an emergency, something that had to be dealt with to the extent that they worked after midnight to get it done. Yet for the emergency that it was then we hear nothing about those who are still uncovered. Where is the emergency now? Not a word from the administration, congress, news media or the people themselves.

    Some emergency.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  4. #30
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    This whole thing seems to be more about the shift in the GOP and conservatism in general. A proposal from a conservative think tank and endorsed by everyone (well at least Newt and Mitt) in the past is no longer considered right wing enough. Ideology seems to be more important and frankly this scares folks who are actually watching - just how far to the right will this cycle go. The Constitutionality of something is fluid depending on who is in power, this simple fact seems to allude this new brand of conservative - their interpretation is right and other points of view are wrong, for them everything is black and white.
    Fox News - Rich people paying rich people to tell middle class people to blame the poor.

  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    This whole thing seems to be more about the shift in the GOP and conservatism in general. A proposal from a conservative think tank and endorsed by everyone (well at least Newt and Mitt) in the past is no longer considered right wing enough. Ideology seems to be more important and frankly this scares folks who are actually watching - just how far to the right will this cycle go. The Constitutionality of something is fluid depending on who is in power, this simple fact seems to allude this new brand of conservative - their interpretation is right and other points of view are wrong, for them everything is black and white.
    One could just as well say the same thing regarding the left.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    This whole thing seems to be more about the shift in the GOP and conservatism in general. A proposal from a conservative think tank and endorsed by everyone (well at least Newt and Mitt) in the past is no longer considered right wing enough. Ideology seems to be more important and frankly this scares folks who are actually watching - just how far to the right will this cycle go. The Constitutionality of something is fluid depending on who is in power, this simple fact seems to allude this new brand of conservative - their interpretation is right and other points of view are wrong, for them everything is black and white.
    So, you didn't actually read the Heritage article.

    Priceless. Not to mention par for the course.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  7. #33
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    For those that have read the article, I will also say that I don't think it goes far enough. The answer to health care issues is to stop subsidizing and make them run a business. Where they even advertise; we have the best staff and price!

    Of course, we must make sure that the poor and elderly are not shut out. Even as a heartless conservative I support entitlements for those groups.

    But that doesn't mean that the system should apply to the rest of us who consider our selves healthy able-bodied citizens!

    And that is the weakness of Obama's plan. Government intervention for everyone regardless of circumstance. And failure to address the root causes of the high cost of health care.

    I have a historical example for you. Here in the great state of MA we used to have car insurance rates mandated by capitol hill. To save money, you understand. The result was that we were in the top ten of most expensive states to insure a car. Then, and truly I can't remember which administration did it, reform and deregulation was proposed and enacted.

    Once deregulated, it suddenly become a marketing heavy affair for all parties. It was more or less a free for all much to the benefit of consumers in MA. Our insurance rates aren't the lowest now, but they also no longer rank among the highest.

    So, should we have believed that additional regulation makes things cost less as proposed by some dope when we have clear evidence that the reverse is actually the case?

    You tell me.

    This link shows that we now rank 45th out of 51. We didn't get there by regulation despite the claim that was why we had regulation in the first place.

    http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/...ates-2010.html

    Oh and, by the way, it is mandated that you have car insurance if you want to drive a car in MA.

    Yeah, we're funny like that.
    Last edited by scrogdog; 05-24-2012 at 09:03 AM. Reason: typos and clarity
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  8. #34
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    http://www.masslive.com/business-new...urance_in.html

    Here's a link I found that will give you additional information on MA deregulation.

    Please note that the last year of regulation was 2007 and as a result "Average premiums fell 12.7 percent between 2007 and 2009 the period when the state’s insurance division implemented managed competition".

    Note the term "managed competition". Exactly what the Heritage article proposes. How one sees this as agreeing with the Obama plan is quite beyond me. Perhaps one of you can explain it to me. Romney Care and Obama Care are NOTHING like the Heritage Proposal in the terms I am discussing. Again, it is not about mandates, it's about free enterpirse. Managed competition.

    Now, please review my post 17 and what do we see? Managed competition was QUITE what Enthoven proposed for the health care industry in 1977!

    All we needed to do is get government hands out of the picture to save money. Not the reverse.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  9. #35
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    I guess you can read into an articial anything you please but the fact is many conservatives were endorsing the mandate even before "Hillarycare" was proposed. This shows an obvious ( to most people) shift in the politics of the GOP and conservativism itself. Just as one of the comments said "Republicans are great at making excuses, and sadly for them, facts do not back up what they say."
    Fox News - Rich people paying rich people to tell middle class people to blame the poor.

  10. #36
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    How many times can I say it?

    The problem with Obama care IS NOT THE MANDATE!

    You still haven't explained how mandated car insurance makes MA a socialist state either.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by geerair View Post
    Stuart left out the most important reason he changed his mind......his plan is now a Dem. plan



    A matter of degree not substance.


    We might well also consider that comprehensive healthcare will prevent many catastrophic health events.
    You are just sooooo biased. Why can't you just look at things objectivley instead of this having to ba a war of left and right and just look at things that are truly good for the country as a whole.

    Laughable.

  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    This whole thing seems to be more about the shift in the GOP and conservatism in general. A proposal from a conservative think tank and endorsed by everyone (well at least Newt and Mitt) in the past is no longer considered right wing enough. Ideology seems to be more important and frankly this scares folks who are actually watching - just how far to the right will this cycle go. The Constitutionality of something is fluid depending on who is in power, this simple fact seems to allude this new brand of conservative - their interpretation is right and other points of view are wrong, for them everything is black and white.
    Clueless, you can't retain what you read, huh? Every part of your above statement is totally spun and misrepresented to try and sell your way of thinking or looking at the world.

    You and geer are killing your credibility with each post. Are you trying to sabatoge your own side of things? If so, good job!

  13. #39
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    The main issue that is in front of the Supremes is the constitutionality of the individual mandate, this seems to be the opponents way of overturning the Affordable Care Act since most of the lawsuits have used this as their basis.

    It has been a good number of years since I had to purchase car insurance in Mass so I have very little first hand knowledge of the inner workings of this socialist plot.

    So I take it the GOP has not moved measurably to the right since they proposed health care reforms in the 90's? Talk about spin and losing credibility, hell, Saint Ronny would not even have a voice in the present day Repub party.
    Fox News - Rich people paying rich people to tell middle class people to blame the poor.

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