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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,156
    Quote Originally Posted by CTI2010
    Turns out the problem was that the metering valve actuator was actually going out.
    So that everyone reading along is on the same page...the metering valve actuator is what controls the butterfly valve (variable orifice) to maintain the level in the condenser. If the level in the condenser is not maintained it becomes increasingly difficult to supply liquid refrigerant to the TXV that is supposed to be controlling the oil temperature.

    The high oil temperature was a symptom of another problem. As mechanics we need to be diligent in finding and treating the cause rather than the symptom. Even a casual look around the chiller while running one should have noted the subcooler wasn't flooded. No liquid stack, no liquid to feed the TXV.

    I stand by my earlier statement regarding the service manuals. If you have been caring for these chillers for three years and do not have a service manual for the the Optiview panel at the VERY least, then IMO you are doing the customer and yourself a disservice. You need to read and understand the operation of the chiller and it's controls until it's second nature...that's what the customer is paying you for.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16
    again, thank you all for the help. I understand what you are saying about the service manuals, but I do have copies of them, just didn't have them on hand at the moment. Yorks are not a frequent machine around here, or at least not many of the sites that I deal with. I have several units of information from york that cost over $500 for the literature, I just don't carry it on my because it is space that I can not afford to use up when I only have 2 units at one job site currently.
    I was only at the site the one time when the unit had a Fault and the actuator was an intermittent problem. I could never get it to trip off on oil temp or climb over 150. I guess that is only one of the many reasons I can't stand York units. Of course I guess that is why they call them the low bid machines. These chillers are only 3 years old and have had more problems then any unit should in 3 years. especially considering that they only get 300-500 hrs a year of run time at the most.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,156
    Quote Originally Posted by CTI2010
    I guess that is only one of the many reasons I can't stand York units. Of course I guess that is why they call them the low bid machines. These chillers are only 3 years old and have had more problems then any unit should in 3 years. especially considering that they only get 300-500 hrs a year of run time at the most.
    Wow! York the "low bid" chiller? I guess you haven't been around very long. Yorks tend to be one of the more expensive chillers. And to pass off your lack of knowledge of the chiller because you don't have the room to carry the manuals is lame at best. Further, if you really understood chillers you would realize that a chiller that only runs 300-500 hours a year is a problem in itself.

    I find it interesting that you come here asking for help and when it's offered up at no cost to you, you turn around and blame the equipment and not having the room to carry books. That sure is convenient. Deflect the problem to the equipment rather than take the time to learn and understand the problem.

    If you want to pass along the name and address of the customer I'll see if I can get someone else to take the Yorks off your hands. BTW, did the customer have to pay for the TXV you misdiagnosed?

  4. #17
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16
    I am not passing off a "lack of knowledge". If you can say that you know everything there is to know about every chiller, then feel free. You would be the first I know to make such a broad statement. All I was saying is that free room on a service truck is limited, and I keep the material available that is in the highest need (benefits the majority of my customers), the rest stays in my office until needed (which is where I went when I needed it). I simply chose to look for help on the web until I was able to get the information.

    Secondly, low chiller run time is not a problem in itself. On a low pressure machine I would agree with you that it is much more of a problem. I would also agree with you that YORK has one of the biggest problems with low run time because they have open drive compressors that have shaft seals to leak. They also have motors that are exposed to the elements along with varying temperatures. Carrier and Trane chillers have enclosed motors, which in my opinion are much better. I HAVE been in the trade for over 10 years and had a hand full of york chillers (maybe 15 or so), and they have always had the most problems (not major, just all of these stupid nuisance problems, such as actuator motors, electrical connectors, displays going out, leaking shaft seals, etc....) They also have purges that can't run when the machine is off. I could go on and on but there is no need to.

    Third, to make a blanket statement about how long I have been around chillers in ridiculous. The fact of the matter is I was practically raised around them. I have been working on & overhauling chillers, and large tonnage recips for over 10 years. I provide my customers with support that most technicians will never come close to. It is why I have been in business for myself since I was 25. I have been through independent training programs, along with union programs. I am also a UA journeyman and have a Bachelors Degree in Business. This is a simple verse to live by COL 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters.

    And I would never charge a customer for a repair that did not solve the problem. Sometimes things like this, along with warranty calls, do happen. that is what profit is supposed to cover.

    I learned early in the trade that there is nobody that knows it all. the important thing isn't knowing it all, it's knowing who to call when you don't.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    La.
    Posts
    280
    As a company owner, I would assume that you have a laptop at all times. Get with the times, everything is available in PDF format. I stopped carring paper books a long time ago. Even a thumb drive with this info on it, you could use the customers desktop.

    Just a thought.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16
    Yes. I do. I emailed my rep when i wrote the first post and received the pdf files yesterday late afternoon. They are now in my file.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    17
    would also agree with you that YORK has one of the biggest problems with low run time because they have open drive compressors that have shaft seals to leak. They also have motors that are exposed to the elements along with varying temperatures. Carrier and Trane chillers have enclosed motors, which in my opinion are much better.
    Yes,York has had problems with leaking shaft seals. However, their bellows style seal works very well. Providing the thrust is in spec. and the chiller does not surge excessively. It also helps if the chiller has the standby seal lube.

    As far as the hermetic motors being "better". That is a matter of opinion.

    I have torn down five Trane chillers (four Centrifugal & one screw) because of open rotor bars and been around several that need to be repaired. Disabling the restart timer on Tranes is not a good idea.

    I can not speak about Carriers because I very seldom work on them.
    I have never had to a rotor bar issue with a York.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    14
    wow is right cti2010 keep stoken those carrier and Tranes the York's are clearly out of your league. Ignorance is bliss and you always hate the one 's you dont understand.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16
    Wow is right.... ignorance is bliss. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, which we all have to some degree or another. As I stated in my previous post, not one of us knows it all. Stupidity however, is altogether different Like the word "stroken" for example, could you show me the dictionary that contains that word? I was having a hard time finding the definition. I would prefer not to be ignorant the next time someone uses it. I spent 5 years of my life coming up as an apprentice, working often 60-120 hrs a week and taking on-call duty 3+ weeks out of the month to learn while I was cheap. Lost countless hours with my family and children, and then continued to get my Bachelor degree for 4 years after this. So please don't talk to me about ignorance. I have yet to walk off of a customers site because I couldn't fix a problem, even when I have had to stay there at no cost to the customer because there was only a justifiable time I could bill for.

    I did not know off the top of my head what the problem was with this machine at that time. I did however order the manuals that I needed as soon as possible so that I could look into the problem and arrive at a solution. I also posted on this forum to gather information from other technicians about what the problem could be. I believe that utilizing resources wherever possible is the best. Regardless of what information is in the manual, hands on learning speaks volumes and past experience from other techs can help solve a problem faster than going trough a 200 page manual.

    The dislike I have for York equipment has nothing to do with ignorance, that was an ignorant statement. The problem I have with york is with the products as a whole. For example, the units at this job site are less then 4 years old. they have had a guide vane actuator go bad, a VGD actuator go bad, and the actuator for the variable orifice go bad.

    I took care of the county of San Diego where I had 18 or so chillers under a full maintenance contract for 3 years. 2 carriers, and around 10 Tranes give or take, and the rest yorks. The tranes needed standard maintenance with perhaps 4 service calls on the lot of them in the entire 3 years. The carriers were fine, the yorks has 2 shaft seals that had to be replaces, ultiple problems with the purges, a VSD that blew a capacitor (less then 3 years old and a pain in the ass to change the bunch of them), a displey that went out, loose connections at multiple molex plugs that I had to remake, and the list goes on.

    I also take care of light commercial and some residential for my customers and the list continues there. One job site had ~ 35 package units with the ECM motors. 6 condenser fans and 4 indoor blowers went out in the first 4 months from start up. these are $400 motors when they are out of warranty! Problems with temperature switches on their 95% modulating furnaces that HAVE TSBs on them. A package unit that continually read freeze protection on the circuit board, even after cutting the molex plug out and creating my own to bypass safety switches on my own to verify switch or board. I spoke with the factory because it still read the same fault with a jumper between the points. Factory said bad board! installed new board, and the same fault. Factory tried to tell me that I didn't know how to troubleshoot!!! Turned out that there was a TSB on this too.... a bad batch of compressor contactors that still worked but somehow back feed voltage through the coil causing the board to read freeze protection error!!!

    The point is the list goes on. Like I said before, most of these things are not major mechanical issues or engineering flaws, but it is the little details that make the difference. IU gan get york units (at least light commercial) cheaper than most competitors, but I will go out of my way and even eat the difference if needed to get the job with another manufacture. It doesn't matter how much you save at the time of purchase when you lose your butt on warranty time, nuisance calls, and customer satisfaction.

    I can fix what I don't know with learning, I cant fix how often their units have problems.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,156
    Quote Originally Posted by CTI2010
    I took care of the county of San Diego where I had 18 or so chillers under a full maintenance contract for 3 years.
    As I recall there are three York chillers at the Vista Courthouse and there were two others at the County Operations site off of Clairemont Mesa. Were there others?

  11. #24
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16
    Well if we do the math, i said about 18 chillers... less 2 for carriers, and about 10 tranes leaves 6. You brought up 2+3... that leves 1, and it is at one of the court houses. Cant remember the name off the top of my head, but they have 1 trane and 1 york. That is the one that had the bad capacitor, display, and connections. It was a courhouse somewhere off of the 8 i believe. El cajon if i remeber correctly.

    But that is the point I'm making. 10 tranes, 2 carriers, 6 yorks.... more trouble on 6 yorks then 10 tranes and 2 carriers combined. Unless you count the 19xr that was blown up. But those are now turbocore compressors

  12. #25
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    16
    And on that subject, that was another one of those open motor problems. At the vista location they nearly blew all 3 motors after someone had left an exhaust fan on for the mechanical room over the weekend during the rainy season. Units went to start all 3 tripped on ground fault from moisture on the motors. When they dried out they ran, but that is luck from the soft starter. They were lucky nothing was damaged.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    20
    Try to maintain atleast 1/2 inch liquid level over your subcooler in the condenser. You should be able to see the subcooler through you condenser sightglass. This ensures you are not vortexing in your dropleg(liquild line) and feeding 100% liquid not gas to your oil cooler txv. Once you raise your level setpoint in the condenser above subcooler, use that level as your setpoint and see what happens. Also, it doesn't sound like this is happening in your case, but surge conditions will manipulate your liquid level in your condenser...i.e vanse closing/opening, drive increasing/decreasing, the machine will try to compensate through the existing surge map and liquid level will be affected. It can make it seem like the level sensor is "hunting" or needs to be calibrated.

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