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  1. #92
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsprice View Post
    The link was just the first one that came up but we know there are numerous articles on both sides. I've also read and seen interviews of Parliament members denouncing social healthcare and saying that the horror stories we here concerning availability and treatment are true. Are they? How often does it happen? Why would high ranking govt officials from Canada and UK warn the US not to use social medicine?

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2
    As with you guys we have people who are ideologically driven on both sides. For some it is all or nothing, some play the game for political purpose, it is easy to throw stones, especially if you are not the ones in power and you do not have to pay the bills.

    Another thing that I have said here in the past, our country went through a financial crisis in the mid 90's where the government cut spending to cut our debt in half. No body was spared with health care spending taking a big hit laying off nurses, cutting doctors salaries, all the support staff also. We have been playing catch-up since then and have done a lot to make up for the tough choices the politicians made to get the country out of debt.

    Just in the hospital complex that I work at we have had non stop construction and upgrades since before I started working there. Currently we have four buildings under construction with a total cost of half a billion dollars going up.

    There will always be horror stories, we had a guy die in the emergency waiting room a couple of years ago and it is still being investigated. Stuff happens. Wait time are part of the system. Not everyone needs to have a procedure done the next day but the ones that do need it sooner get it done right away. The funny thing that they found out about providing more services to reduce the wait times, the more you work at reducing them by adding the number of procedures (such as a MRI), the more doctors proscribe them.

    In case you are interested, some wait times for my province.

    http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waittime/index.html

    The times are an average, some get shorter waits and some longer. Another thing that I found doctors do is put a patient on a couple of lists, there are different lists for each hospital and you can choose which one you want to go to, so there is shopping around to get the health professional you want doing the procedure. Some people wait longer on one list so they specifically get a certain physician. others put their name on more than one list in order to get faster service in case there is a cancellation somewhere and they can get in early.

    We were backed up with MRI's at my hospital and we poured a pad and supplied electrical for a mobile MRI that you have running around your country that we rented for a few months.

    Do politicians try to make hay when there is a problem? Sure do. But that is a good thing because then the ones in charge have to do something to get the heat off themselves. It is our way of accountability. It is better than hiding problems.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  2. #93
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    Apr 2009
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    2,297
    A few things to keep in mind when considering government providing something for you instead of providing the same for yourself.

    You don't have a right to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

    Greed is not someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it is people demanding a greater share of what someone else earns.

    When government provides something it always takes by force that which is necessary to provide it from someone else in order to provide it.

    It is generally the liberal who are greedy when they promote government assistance as they are taking something away from somebody the fruit of their labor in order to provide it. Yet those same liberals rarely make personal donations to charity from their own pockets.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  3. #94
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    Dec 2011
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    New Zealand
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Most of what you posted above is nonsense since most of those items are things that no one has the remotest ability to choose. Therefore they have nothing to do with this discussion.

    Taking an innocent life is murder and is therefore a wrong moral choice. I would never promote murder.

    In an open and free society with the government securing those freedoms instead of limiting them we all would have the ability to choose to study, learn, start a business, work our way up thru a career and keep the fruits of our labor. Instead the government often puts roadblocks and hurdles in front of those who wish to succeed on their own.

    We are guaranteed nothing in life. It is not the role of government to enforce equality of outcome, it should be the government's role to ensure equality of opportunity.
    It is you have no understanding of choice, I gave example of those who have no choice, therefore as a responsible society those who are able to make a choice, need protect those who can not. A society needs governance by a method of government.

    What is the difference between some one dying a slow and pain full death due to lack of healthcare, and and or putting them to death whilst in the above situation. If you call one murder, then call the other murder. Standing by with your hand on your wallet, is no excuse.

    You also clear do not understand any economic model, there has to be a separation between the have and have not's. If all had the opportunity, to produce fruit and did, then the fruit would be worthless, in a time where economic expansionism has stopped.

    How can any government offer or ensure in equality of opportunity.
    Your base argument on universal health flies in the opposite direction, to your equal opportunity statement, for a new born to have an equal opportunity when he/she grows up then, healthcare must be provided equally to all.
    It is the governments role to act as the agent for the people! What the government does, is by the decree of the people who voted the government in.
    As long as you have the freedom to be elected and the freedom to vote, then what happens is the responsibility of the people. The problem with living in any form of representative democracy, there will be some out comes that will not fall your way.

    If you do not like your choices, start up a new party, and see who votes for you. I look foreword to seeing you on the steps of the whitehouse.

  4. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    A few things to keep in mind when considering government providing something for you instead of providing the same for yourself.

    You don't have a right to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.
    You seem to understand the concept of insurance, basically sharing the risk between people. Those that share the risk have a right to that service. If you pay your premiums that your insurance company set then you would expect that service.

    Greed is not someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it is people demanding a greater share of what someone else earns.
    And not contributing to the cost of the service that you may use is greed. From what I understand, if you get in a car accident and end up at a hospital they have to treat you and hopefully get the cost back. If you have no insurance or wealth that they can take, basically you are one of these greedy people, you do not want to pay in the system but if you really need it it will be there for you.

    When government provides something it always takes by force that which is necessary to provide it from someone else in order to provide it.
    No, the government is set up by the people to govern for the people. If you do not like the services provided by the government you can complain to your representative and in a democracy you can change the system to any thing you want. Otherwise being a part of a democracy you agree to abide by the laws and obligations that go along with being a citizen. Don't like it, change the system or move.

    It is generally the liberal who are greedy when they promote government assistance as they are taking something away from somebody the fruit of their labor in order to provide it. Yet those same liberals rarely make personal donations to charity from their own pockets.
    Suck it up baby. Democracy in action.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  5. #96
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    Mar 2008
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    Long Beach, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsprice View Post
    So you spend 12k out of pocket for two people annually? Far cry less than 200k...the exact same amount as my, "gravy train" and I'm sure your copay and rx is also the exact same as mine.

    So where do you get flamed remarks from? It appears you are the one that that regurgitates what you hear in the media instead of using actual stats for a basis to your arguments.

    Honestly, its ok to have an opinion and I'm willing to hear yours. Just don't believe that I can take your trolling seriously when you obviously are not informed. Actually, I think calling you uninformed gives you more credit than you deserve...

    Argue with me with facts....not bs...
    My policy is nothing like yours. I pay less than three thousand dollars a year but my deductible is $8,500. That means my insurance pays nothing until my out-of-pocket exceeds $8,500 annually. So if I was to have a $50,000 hospital bill it would cost me $8,500, which is the same as a person who pays $11,500 in premiums and has zero deducible. And unlike you, I don’t have an employer that picks up two thirds of that tab/risk.

    If you cannot understand how paying $1,000 a month to an insurance policy for thirty years is the same cost as buying a house for $200,000, I can’t help you with that. Its basic math with the exception that the insurance policy will increase 10% annually and the mortgage payment will not. Also with a house you will own it outright after thirty years. So buying a house is a much better deal.

    IMO your hatred of liberals skews your perception of the issue.

  6. #97
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    You cant justify socialism with math. Where do people who are well and live in socialist countries go for life saving medical procedures ?

    They come to America.

  7. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    You don't have a right to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.
    If everyone pays into the system how is one person taking something from another?

  8. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    You cant justify socialism with math. Where do people who are well and live in socialist countries go for life saving medical procedures ?

    They come to America.
    Then Canadian healthcare cannot save a life? They ALL come here for that?

    Our problem is that we glorify our doctors and worship the money they make while going broke trying to support them and their corrupt system.

  9. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    You cant justify socialism with math. Where do people who are well and live in socialist countries go for life saving medical procedures ?

    They come to America.
    Yeah..some of them do come to America but many of them have the services that they acquire here paid for by their insurance system.

    Is anyone counting the number of people that leave the US to go to Canada for their healthcare?

    What percentage of those people stay in Canada and never move back to America?

    Of course what many Americans fail to realize is that healthcare in Canada is very different from province to province, so you can't really judge their entire system by how many Canadians do this or do that without breaking it down into more detail.

    There are bad things that happen medically in both countries, like the number of bankruptcies in America due to healthcare, or the number of people in Canada that may have to wait a little longer.

    If you are faced with a longer wait would you be more reluctant to go to the ER for every little problem? This is another major issue in America...we think that every time we get a cough or stub a toe that it's off to the doctor.

  10. #101
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    Sep 2006
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    Americans go to The Philippines, Mexico and Malaysia to get dental/medical procedures they can't afford here. There is even a phrase for it "medical tourism". Great system, outsource everything and the market will decide. Liberty!
    Fox News - Rich people paying rich people to tell middle class people to blame the poor.

  11. #102
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    Oct 2011
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    Arkansas
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    Americans go to The Philippines, Mexico and Malaysia to get dental/medical procedures they can't afford here. There is even a phrase for it "medical tourism". Great system, outsource everything and the market will decide. Liberty!
    You can go to Matamoros and get a filling for $20.00.Well worth the cost of a passport.

    Seen something on TV about US citizens going to India for surgeries. Couldn't imagine going to India to have anything done. That's plain scary.

  12. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    You cant justify socialism with math. Where do people who are well and live in socialist countries go for life saving medical procedures ?

    They come to America.
    One of our carpenters had chest pains two nights ago at 10:00pm (he is in his early 40's), by 11:30 he decided to go to emergency. He ended up having a heart attack and today I saw him sitting up in bed talking to someone (I did not inquire more, I was there checking out some isolation rooms and did not stick around). Doubt he would have made it if he booked a trip ti the U.S.



    Yes we are such a backwater country here we do not have the ability to care for our sick. God forbid we try to do medical research on our own.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  13. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC5096 View Post
    You can go to Matamoros and get a filling for $20.00.Well worth the cost of a passport.

    Seen something on TV about US citizens going to India for surgeries. Couldn't imagine going to India to have anything done. That's plain scary.
    I hear you can get a liver cheap.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

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