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  1. #79
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    What benefits me most is having the choice to have or not have insurance at all.

    If I choose to have insurance it is to my benefit to choose which plan I deem best for me at that period in my life, what level of coverage I desire to pay for and which of the many insurance companies I want to go with.

    When the government runs things they ALWAYS screw it up! Social Security is a prime example. A total screw job. Government health care will be similarly messed up.

    At least with a private insurance company I can switch companies and/or plans. Private entriprise is always better than government services.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  2. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    What benefits me most is having the choice to have or not have insurance at all.

    If I choose to have insurance it is to my benefit to choose which plan I deem best for me at that period in my life, what level of coverage I desire to pay for and which of the many insurance companies I want to go with.

    When the government runs things they ALWAYS screw it up! Social Security is a prime example. A total screw job. Government health care will be similarly messed up.

    At least with a private insurance company I can switch companies and/or plans. Private entriprise is always better than government services.
    Choice is exactly right!

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

  3. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    What benefits me most is having the choice to have or not have insurance at all.

    If I choose to have insurance it is to my benefit to choose which plan I deem best for me at that period in my life, what level of coverage I desire to pay for and which of the many insurance companies I want to go with.

    When the government runs things they ALWAYS screw it up! Social Security is a prime example. A total screw job. Government health care will be similarly messed up.

    At least with a private insurance company I can switch companies and/or plans. Private entriprise is always better than government services.
    I understand that is your outlook and you have every right to that belief.

    My belief is that I know government screws up....but I also know companies screw up...why else would our government have to bail them out? I also know many companies will play you for a fool and treat you as a peon...at least government will provide my kids a school, and pave a road so that I can drive them there.

    I agree with your point about having choice, but as I understand it universal healthcare will allow private insurance companies to stay in business, just as it is so with our neighbors North of us. Canada has many private insurance companies and I believe it could work the same way here in America, leaving us our choices.

    The bill that is in the works now does not state that you must buy government healthcare...but that you must have some form of healthcare or be fined. Many people are complaining about this, but I don't see our nation standing up against car insurance..what's more important your arm or your windshield?

    In a way forcing people to have healthcare makes sense, do you realize how many people are going bankrupt in this country because they thought they could pay their bills on the spot if an emergency happened but found out they were completely wrong? The number is around 60% of all bankruptcies in America.

    Not to mention the companies that are then taking huge hits from people not paying their bills, and having to pass the cost onto someone else....there is the reason for rising healthcare costs.

    Just like when the first cars came out, we now have to do something to make people pay their medical bills, the country is hurting because of it.

  4. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by AStudent View Post
    I understand that is your outlook and you have every right to that belief.

    My belief is that I know government screws up....but I also know companies screw up...why else would our government have to bail them out? I also know many companies will play you for a fool and treat you as a peon...at least government will provide my kids a school, and pave a road so that I can drive them there.

    I agree with your point about having choice, but as I understand it universal healthcare will allow private insurance companies to stay in business, just as it is so with our neighbors North of us. Canada has many private insurance companies and I believe it could work the same way here in America, leaving us our choices.

    The bill that is in the works now does not state that you must buy government healthcare...but that you must have some form of healthcare or be fined. Many people are complaining about this, but I don't see our nation standing up against car insurance..what's more important your arm or your windshield?

    In a way forcing people to have healthcare makes sense, do you realize how many people are going bankrupt in this country because they thought they could pay their bills on the spot if an emergency happened but found out they were completely wrong? The number is around 60% of all bankruptcies in America.

    Not to mention the companies that are then taking huge hits from people not paying their bills, and having to pass the cost onto someone else....there is the reason for rising healthcare costs.

    Just like when the first cars came out, we now have to do something to make people pay their medical bills, the country is hurting because of it.
    Comparing car insurance to required personal health insurance are not at all the same. I am required to carry car insurance to protect someone else from me. I am not required to insure the loss of my car just the other persons car and person.

    With personal health insurance the government is forcing me to cover myself or pay a fine. The governement has no business protecting me from myself. The same goes for wearing a seat belt. It should not be against the law to not wear a seat belt. That is the business of my auto insurance company. My auto insurance company could write that into my policy. I don't wear a belt and am injured they dont pay.

    We need less and less government. Nearly everything the government does is messed up. If the government cant get Social Security coverage right I cant trust them to get health coverage right either. I maintain when the government runs health care we will get inferior health care. Doctors will be told when I qualify for treatment, which treatment, how much treatment and how much the doctor is paid. It will be inferior to what a private plan would be. As soon as government gets involved they then take on more and more control until they totally control that area.

    If I want to sue my private health insurance company I can do so. Every try sueing the government? Cant unless they agree. You Lose!

    Every service government provides costs many times what it would if private industry did it. Our schools are a mess. Government education is next to no education at all. Only the richer citizen can afford to pay the private school tuition while at the same time being forced to pay the taxes for the public schools and school vouchers are not allowed. And if that is not bad enough the government is regularly encroaching on the private schools as well as homeschoolers trying to tell them what and how to teach. Public schools dont work and they still want to control the private and homeschoolers.

    Government screws up everything it gets its hands on and you want it to control health care insurance. I want less government not more.

    If some family moves into the woods and starts living off the grid the goverment will be right there to arrest them for failing to have health insurance and homeschooling their kids without the government's special permission.

    I cant even own an AR15 in the state of California and it is identical in firing power to my California legal ranch rifle. Government just intrudes in our personal lives and in many cases does nothing more than cause unnessary grief to individuals who just want to be left alone to live our lives.

    Government is now the biggest threat to my constitutional right to the persuit to happiness.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  5. #83
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    Austin, TX
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    Most of the time when companies screw up, the government lets them fail.
    The market redistributes the resources and customers to someone who takes better care of them.

    When government is involved, it is both the provider and overseer of the process.
    This is like letting the fox guard the hen house. However all the chickens are now put in one large hen house and makes it easier for the foxes to steal all the chickens they want. Lie and steal, lie and steal, lie and steal.

    We are humans. We are not angels or demons. We will look out for our own self interest and look to game any system to our advantage.
    Humans in government are no different. The free market allow choices, competition for business encourages providing the best services. The tension of interests between the buyer and seller or the provider and the customer limits scope of the self interest games. The is no limit on the government but the constitution and the people armed with both ballots and bullets.. Government has proven to be a game easy to manipulate by those in power and the force levels possible by government allows little choice.

    BTW, there is a difference in powers between the federal and state government.
    A state can tell you to wear seat belts and buy car insurance.
    The federal government was not delegated those powers by the people in the US constitution.
    All powers not delegated were reserved for the states or for the people. You can only squeeze so much into the interstate commerce clause and the general welfare clause.
    We also have choice of what state to live in if we don't like the laws. We can also get laws changed on a state level. Thus the legalization of medical marijuana and gay marriage in some states.
    “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
    ― Benjamin Franklin

  6. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by allan38 View Post
    Most of the time when companies screw up, the government lets them fail.
    The market redistributes the resources and customers to someone who takes better care of them.

    When government is involved, it is both the provider and overseer of the process.
    This is like letting the fox guard the hen house. However all the chickens are now put in one large hen house and makes it easier for the foxes to steal all the chickens they want. Lie and steal, lie and steal, lie and steal.

    We are humans. We are not angels or demons. We will look out for our own self interest and look to game any system to our advantage.
    Humans in government are no different. The free market allow choices, competition for business encourages providing the best services. The tension of interests between the buyer and seller or the provider and the customer limits scope of the self interest games. The is no limit on the government but the constitution and the people armed with both ballots and bullets.. Government has proven to be a game easy to manipulate by those in power and the force levels possible by government allows little choice.

    Absolutely correct! The government should never bail out any company. Let even the largest firms fail. Someone else will enter the market and provide that product more efficiently. The customer will choose the company that best meets their needs and wants. Government will never do that. Government limits our choices, provides an inferior product or service and controls our lives more and more. Even fining us or arresting us for resisting their control.

    The eventual end is socialism or worse.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

  7. #85
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    New Zealand
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    You talk about choice, choice is all dependent upon the amount of wealth and privileged you have.
    A child had no choice to be born, it has no choice in its parents, no choice in what environment it lives in.
    Many have no choice in what medical aliments they have.
    Many have no choice in the ability to earn wealth and privilege.
    You are simply showing that you have no respect for others, and that self is the only issue that matters.
    If you had any humility about you, then you should be promoting compulsory euthanasia, and yet I have not seen any of you promote this issue. Your comment indicate that those who can not afford health care, should just die a slow and agonizing death, would you do that to your dog or horse.
    So stopping sitting on the fence, promote the real issue "survival of the fittest/wealthiest" and stopping hiding behind, the blame game. "as mother nature intended"??????????????

  8. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Absolutely correct! The government should never bail out any company. Let even the largest firms fail. Someone else will enter the market and provide that product more efficiently. The customer will choose the company that best meets their needs and wants. Government will never do that. Government limits our choices, provides an inferior product or service and controls our lives more and more. Even fining us or arresting us for resisting their control.

    The eventual end is socialism or worse.
    I agree with you on some aspects...but the only reason government is corrupt is because we the people allow them to be. We live with our cozy lifestyle, afraid to petition anything as we might lose our cozy lifestyle.

    We are in control of the government...and if they fail whose fault is it? You can blame them, but in really it is us who are at fault due to our failure to act, especially since we are the ones that voted them into office to begin with.


    Personal choice is an amazing thing, but at what cost is it still acceptable?
    Personal choice to kill someone?
    Personal choice to switch grocery stores?
    Personal choice to bankrupt the country because we feel that people are competent enough to pay their own bills when in reality people are not?

    When it comes to bailing out companies, do you really think that during one of the worst recessions in nearly a century when unemployment is skyrocketing that we should allow companies that employ hundreds of thousands of people, to fail? By doing so you are signing the death warrant of your country...where are those people going to work when the rest of the jobs have moved overseas or are not hiring due to a tough economy? Do you really want unemployment rate to be 12% instead of 8% and even more people on food stamps?

    I agree that our schools are a mess...but do you really think a private company is going to charge you any less or control you any less than the government? Take private schools for instance, they are going to charge you an arm and a leg per child you enroll, while forcing their own idea of control onto you and your kids. Think they won't arrest you if you come onto their property to express yourself against their control? Wrong. Many of these private schools hire security guards from other private companies to do just that.

    I look at companies and government as one in the same...they are both corrupt, both greedy, and liars. The only difference in my eyes is government has an obligation to give back to the community, while companies often give to charities they have no official duty to do this, so can they be counted upon to give back?

  9. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsprice View Post
    http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-...re-no-model-us

    And that's just the first article...there are many published articles that name sources. If sources aren't referenced, I kinda doubt personal testimony.

    I do not doubt Canada has good health care, I just doubt its the same quality as here in US. Why should high end surgeons strive to be the best?[ The pay is the same for the one who is great at it as it is for the one fresh out of school.
    Where do you get the idea? I work in a complex that is part hospital, research facility that has part of a university medical school attached to it. Doctors, nurses, pharmacists, dentists, and a host of others get trained here. We have doctors that are fresh faced and just starting out and others that have worked to the top of the income ladder.

    According to the WRHA's latest annual staff compensation report, released Tuesday, 35 of the 50 highest-paid staff are ER doctors.

    Many even out-earned some of the WRHA's best-known senior administrators, including president and chief executive officer Brian Postl and Dr. Brock Wright, the senior vice-president of clinical services.

    Last year was the first full year of a hefty fee increase that started in the summer of 2007 designed to woo doctors into the city's four community hospital emergency rooms. The deal offered doctors salary hikes worth between 25 and 50 per cent, making them among the highest-paid ER physicians in the country.


    Of course there are doctors in Canada that are very qualified and are very good at what they do. So, do you get to pick your surgeon or are you assigned?
    We get to pick our own doctors. But as probably with you, just because you want to go to a particular doctor does not mean the doc has to take you. I was seeing one doctor and he decided to specialize in seniors. He referred me to another doctor which I went to for a while. Now that I moved across town I wanted to see a doctor closer to home and chose a clinic to go to. They had a few doctors there, a couple already had enough patients but two were still taking some, so I picked between them.

    Picking surgeons is the same way. Your doctor refers you to s surgeon and you can take him or ask for another. The more popular ones are booked up a lot more so it may take longer to get your procedure done. If you need emergency treatment, usually you get who ever is on call at the time or who has a slot open.

    Despite Brian's flaming post(s), I have actually been looking into the subject of healthcare for quite a few years now and would enjoy comparing notes with you.

    BTW, Brian, yes healthcare has gone up since Obama took office, but its still not 200k annually. If you are paying that much you are being hustled. If you are paying half that, you are being hustled. Do you have coverage? Your own policy or through your employer? How much, really, do you pay?

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


    I will not pick apart the article even though I see a number of points to dispute. But you can see where the author's mindset lies.

    My own personal contacts with Canadians support a recent article in the Montreal Gazette, in which a Canadian woman described the frequent rudeness of unionized Canadian medical staff as compared to the "kindness, discretion, and professionalism" of staff members in U.S. hospitals. Few Canadians can afford to experience health care in the U.S. and thus make this comparison.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  10. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    There are about six Canadian posters here on HVAC-Talk who strongly defend their nationalized healthcare system. Therefore I would not take that article at face value until I read a rebuttal to it. And, why would you doubt personal testimony but believe that article? For instance it is easy to lie with facts. An example would be to publish the long wait times but not include that the fact that critical cases get pushed to the front of the line which I’ve been told is the case. If people are dieing from waiting in line then they should publish that, but they aren’t.

    Canada may have mediocre healthcare compared to our Ferrari care but at least everybody gets care and nobody is going bankrupt over it. Here the bulk of the people do not seem to care because their employers are paying two-thirds of their premiums. True, they may be able to opt out but that just means they’d have to pay the same amount elsewhere.
    Well I would not go so far as to call it mediocre healthcare, we just do not have the excess capacity that you have built into your system. Like a truck with a lot of pulling power you have more cargo capacity, here sometimes you have to take two trips. But even with that, things such as cancer survival rates and other metrics we are on par with the US. Could we have a Cadillac system? Sure. If all of us taxpayers started to complain the politicians would surely throw more money into the system. But they tell us, it will cost us more in tax. And this is where we the tax payers say, 'You know, maybe we are doing pretty good, leave the taxes alone.' We are not saying we have a perfect system, but it is one that we do not want to give up, we do tinker with it from time to time according to wants and needs. Basically we feel it is a good compromise.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  11. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by AStudent View Post
    I agree with you on some aspects...but the only reason government is corrupt is because we the people allow them to be.
    And that is something we do in Canada. We hold our government accountable and we will not be afraid to turf them out.

    In the Canadian federal election, 1993, the governing Progressive Conservative Party was reduced from a strong majority government to only two seats.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipeout_%28elections%29
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  12. #90
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    Dec 2011
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    The link was just the first one that came up but we know there are numerous articles on both sides. I've also read and seen interviews of Parliament members denouncing social healthcare and saying that the horror stories we here concerning availability and treatment are true. Are they? How often does it happen? Why would high ranking govt officials from Canada and UK warn the US not to use social medicine?

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

  13. #91
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbar View Post
    You talk about choice, choice is all dependent upon the amount of wealth and privileged you have.
    A child had no choice to be born, it has no choice in its parents, no choice in what environment it lives in.
    Many have no choice in what medical aliments they have.
    Many have no choice in the ability to earn wealth and privilege.
    You are simply showing that you have no respect for others, and that self is the only issue that matters.
    If you had any humility about you, then you should be promoting compulsory euthanasia, and yet I have not seen any of you promote this issue. Your comment indicate that those who can not afford health care, should just die a slow and agonizing death, would you do that to your dog or horse.
    So stopping sitting on the fence, promote the real issue "survival of the fittest/wealthiest" and stopping hiding behind, the blame game. "as mother nature intended"??????????????
    Most of what you posted above is nonsense since most of those items are things that no one has the remotest ability to choose. Therefore they have nothing to do with this discussion.

    Taking an innocent life is murder and is therefore a wrong moral choice. I would never promote murder.

    In an open and free society with the government securing those freedoms instead of limiting them we all would have the ability to choose to study, learn, start a business, work our way up thru a career and keep the fruits of our labor. Instead the government often puts roadblocks and hurdles in front of those who wish to succeed on their own.

    We are guaranteed nothing in life. It is not the role of government to enforce equality of outcome, it should be the government's role to ensure equality of opportunity.
    "No matter how thirsty your imagination, mirages contain no water"

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