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  1. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheelr View Post
    So far I only mentioned union as a reference point to wages, you somehow are arguing against unions with a guy who hasn't said anything positive or negative about unions. Why are you doing that?

    Why are you backpedaling on specifics when you yourself asked me to get more specific? Do you truly believe you need Milkman to keep working harder and harder for shorter money in order for you to continue to make half as much as a state hourly worker? That's the way I read it. What am I missing? I don't need the low paid mechanics in my state to make what I make, and I make more than the state workers in my state. How do you figure some of the money low paid people don't make helps you? Does your boss give you some bonus when he stiffs somebody on a raise?

    I would like anyone who can make a living in my trade to continue to ask for a reasonable share of what their employers bill them out for. It seems obvious that would help the general economics of workers in that trade. When the billing rates and profit and overhead go up, but wages go down, how can that be a good thing?

    Try to stay away from the union nonunion hash out and just stick with this point that you yourself said you wanted a short clear explanation from me on
    In a free trade system its your brains and skills combined with political savvy and common sense. I myself however believe in regulation and fairness for people that do what is required of them in the workplace. When I think of unions I think of people showing up for a paycheck doing as little as possible for a set wage. When I think of the current system of free trade I think of the 1% Wall street fatcats widening the gap between the haves and have-nots. I dont vote so my opinion doesn't really matter.

  2. #67
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    You have a great day.

    Don't OD on the kool aid.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  3. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WMG View Post
    In a free trade system its your brains and skills combined with political savvy and common sense. I myself however believe in regulation and fairness for people that do what is required of them in the workplace. When I think of unions I think of people showing up for a paycheck doing as little as possible for a set wage. When I think of the current system of free trade I think of the 1% Wall street fatcats widening the gap between the haves and have-nots. I dont vote so my opinion doesn't really matter.

    Without 1% folks, no union guy would have a place to report for work.

    In fact, i wouldn't have a job, either.

    A few more 1% folks, and we can get some more guys back to work.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  4. #69
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    Feb 2010
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    Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan1088 View Post
    If this doesn't tell you how backwards things are....my wife has a masters degree and I clear 10k more, better benefits, and work far less hours......

    Of course you're curious what she does? She's a teacher.
    One of the most under paid professions... for the ones that care. Then again, I think we're way under paid too, due to the vast array of knowledge we're required to have. However, sustainability almost requires us to be paid less than we're really worth. If we were, very few would have heating and cooling.

  5. #70
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    Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Actually, you are buying into a falsehood. The rich have lost the largest AMOUNT (Yes, they lost more and have more room to lose comfortably.How does someone making $2K a month lose anything comfortably?) of money as the economy tanked. Typically, the rich are better positioned by education and advice (Wealthy families or friends. Yes, it takes money to make money.) to grow their wealth (and luck), so they SHOULD (I would say, 'WILL get richer if they want and circumstances are favorable.') get richer, but that does not always happen. They are more likely to learn habits of success, so they are successful. It isn't because they are "taking" (Did I say "taken"? I'll have to review and get back with you.) wealth from anyone else. They are CREATING (the only way wealth can be "CREATED" is if it is artificial. The only way wealth can be created is at the expense of others. It's similar to displacment of water. Unfortunately, that's the way of the system. That's how currency works.) wealth.

    Conversely we have the fattest (I assume you're speaking metaphorically. It would be wrong to assume that a poor person is fat because they're well off in some way. The starving are skin and bones, the rich are fit, and the ones in between cannot afford to eat well. That's another debate. Of course, there are some fat rich people and some fit people in between, but dollar for dollar you get more calories at McD's than you do in the grocery store.) , most comfortable "poor" people on the face of the planet, bar none (I agree that the US poor are a little better off than much of the world. Until you're up and close, you don't really know what your neighbors are going through. That's not to say that the "third world" countries aren't suffering.). "The poor" are poor mostly because of choices (Now you're buying into falsehood. None of us can chose the circumstances we're born under and can only improve it so much with so much downward pressure.) they make in their lives, the educational (Education can help but it's not the only factor.)possibilities they ignored because doing well in school was considered to be "acting white," (I don't even know if I should touch this sentence because it's so racially charged. I was the white minority in my school and I've seen many very intelligent non-white students. None of them were charged with "acting white". Sounds like you've been listening to too much Rush. My dad likes him too. For the record, I think Bill Maur is just as disgusting as Rush) the use of drugs, the formation of a criminal record, out of wedlock pregnancy, etc. These are ALL choices, and they will help to keep "the poor" on the government dole. (Yes, politicians will be politicians and they will buy whatever votes they can... both sides will. Some appeal to people's desperate condition and try to keep them there and others will appeal to fear of others and prejudices.)

    It is always a good idea to seek to receive what you are worth. However, YOU don't get to determine what you are worth. The MARKET determines that (That, I agree with. I will try to make as much as I can within the perameters that the MARKET has set. Sustainability must be balanced with value. UAW proved that.). Sometimes you can obtain your own idea of your worth, but most of the time, it won't happen.

    Does that help? (Were you trying to open my eyes?)

    Now, where is that guy who says that working people are being hurt????

  6. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    What hurts all working people is an inflated view of one's own worth, done in a group of like minded folks, like Wisconsin state workers, or my own local municipal workers. They DEMAND a lifestyle and pension that is easily double what I make, in terms of total compensation. So, I, the lowly taxpayer, has to supply the guys who essentially work for ME with a lifestyle that is TWICE what I make.

    That's what "hurts all workers."
    I think you're another guy that confuses PRIVATE and PUBLIC unions.

  7. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Well, you can feel free to remain ignorant.

    Milkman is not "hurting all workers," so your premise is shot all to he**.
    Of course Milkman isn't hurting all workers. It's the attitude that so many accept. So you feel the public unions are screwing you. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the politicians that everyone votes in FAVOR of. If YOU vote, look at yourself first. Either side of the aisle. There's so much propaganda out there and people are pointing fingers at each other. No wonder the world is so divided.

  8. #73
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    Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by WMG View Post
    In a free trade system its your brains and skills combined with political savvy and common sense. I myself however believe in regulation and fairness for people that do what is required of them in the workplace. When I think of unions I think of people showing up for a paycheck doing as little as possible for a set wage. When I think of the current system of free trade I think of the 1% Wall street fatcats widening the gap between the haves and have-nots. I dont vote so my opinion doesn't really matter.
    I'll agree with most of that. Except for the part about union workers showing up to do as little as possible for their paycheck. Isn't that most people the world over, union or otherwise. I've worked with great and terrible non-union and union.

  9. #74
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    Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Without 1% folks, no union guy would have a place to report for work.

    In fact, i wouldn't have a job, either.

    A few more 1% folks, and we can get some more guys back to work.
    Then it'd be 1.1, 1.5, or even 2.0.

  10. #75
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    Wow. That was a lot of posts. Did that help?

  11. #76
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    Nov 2007
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    Sherman, TX
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    I laugh out loud, when I hear someone claim that a union shop "charges less, but pays more".....

    I suppose a union shop can defy gravity too?

    Would the union folks have us believe that union shop owners are somehow more benevolent than their non-union counterparts?

    Bunk.

    A non-union shop can send two guys with wide-ranged skills out to do a job....while the union shop has to send 4-5 guys out, to do the same job.

    Why? Because in a union shop, the guys are bound by rules as to what they can and can not do.....one guy can do piping but not the electrical....another guy can to the wiring but not the sheet metal....yada, yada, yada.....So, what does the CUSTOMER pay a union shop versus a non-union shop for the SAME JOB when all is said and done?

    I'll never forget the time that as a young lad, I went with my Dad and his electronics company to do a trade show at McCormick Place. A Teamster had to back the truck up to the dock.....a Dockworker had to unload the truck and cart the display to the floor.....then a Carpenter had to assemble it....then an electrician had to plug it in.....

    Or, another FAVORITE story.....We moved from Chicago at Christmas of '73. One of Dad's old customers decided to build a new grocery store, right next to his old one. The "union electricians" couldn't figure out how to do the case wiring.....So, Dad flew back to Chicago to help the guy that took over his business wire up the cases.....BIG TROUBLE.....all the other union trades threatened to walk off the job.....so, the store owner had to pay the useless "union electricians" to sit on stools for 8 hours a day, while Dad and Tom wired the cases.

    Oh yah....I just LOVE unions.....the biggest obstacle to productivity in our country today....right up there with taxes and government regulations.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  12. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisTechMech View Post
    I'll agree with most of that. Except for the part about union workers showing up to do as little as possible for their paycheck. Isn't that most people the world over, union or otherwise. I've worked with great and terrible non-union and union.
    Most people who are true professionals do not just show up for a paycheck and perform menial tasks. In this profession the people I see doing really well are those whom care enough to actually learn all electrical control aspects as well as the refrigeration and the customer service side. I have always worked hard for whatever check I recieved.

  13. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisTechMech View Post
    I think you're another guy that confuses PRIVATE and PUBLIC unions.
    I'm not confused at all. Are you?

    Also...

    We have poor people that are fat because they can eat more fattening food than I do on their EBT card purchases. I am paying for their food, their healthcare, their education....and yet, most of them stay poor.

    Now, I can tell you why that happens.


    They are comfortable.




    Being poor is SUPPOSED to be sufficiently uncomfortable, so that you struggle to make changes in your life situation so that you end up NOT poor. We stopped making poor people uncomfortable with the LBJ "war on poverty," which was really a war on discomfort and inconvenience. We have more poor people than ever, and they are all poor (able bodied and mind) by choice.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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