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  1. #53
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    Timebuilder, I think Cheelr is saying contractor street rate vs tech compensation margins are proportionally larger now than they ever were. This may be true (IDK). On the other hand, it may be that more regulation, specialty tools, etc (overhead) may require this shift he speaks of. I think there's way to much polariztion caused by this union/non-union battle. It SHOULD be about the craftsman and his employer. Unfortunately, too many shops take advantage of their techs. Example... I'm currently working non-union and I worked 2.5 hours on Friday. They sent me home and said, "...but you're on stand-by until 5:30. We'll call you if we need you." Okay... I'll leave my phone on the charger and if I here it from the zoo or whatever I want to do with my kids, I might answer. Now, if you want to pay me for my stand-by time, I'll keep my phone on me. If YOU as the employer want to affect what I do with MY time, compensate me. Even if you pay me minimum wage or for a few hours, I'll stay near my uniform, tools, truck and phone. On the other hand, the union shops are getting involved in A LOT more than negotiating wages and benefits. They can argue all their political points all day, but it used to be about workmen getting together and protecting EACH OTHER from unreasonable and even abusive employers. There's very little balance left in this world. Let's be reasonable and get along with our fellow workers and employers. If your employer's a jerk, do something about it and he won't be in business for long if every tech would stand up for himself. Sorry.

  2. #54
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    Sorry I got sidetracked in my own thought. Anyhow... Timebuilder, I guess what I meant to say is that by ACCEPTING what you're given and not insisting upon what you're worth, you artificially lower all value little by little. Why are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer at rates unseen in this country? The divide is growing while tax rates are proportionally the smallest we've ever seen (I think).

  3. #55
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    If this doesn't tell you how backwards things are....my wife has a masters degree and I clear 10k more, better benefits, and work far less hours......

    Of course you're curious what she does? She's a teacher.

  4. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisTechMech View Post
    Sorry I got sidetracked in my own thought. Anyhow... Timebuilder, I guess what I meant to say is that by ACCEPTING what you're given and not insisting upon what you're worth, you artificially lower all value little by little. Why are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer at rates unseen in this country? The divide is growing while tax rates are proportionally the smallest we've ever seen (I think).
    Actually, you are buying into a falsehood. The rich have lost the largest amount of money as the economy tanked. Typically, the rich are better positioned by education and advice to grow their wealth, so they SHOULD get richer, but that does not always happen. They are more likely to learn habits of success, so they are successful. It isn't because they are "taking" wealth from anyone else. They are CREATING wealth.

    Conversely we have the fattest, most comfortable "poor" people on the face of the planet, bar none. "The poor" are poor mostly because of choices they make in their lives, the educational possibilities they ignored because doing well in school was considered to be "acting white," the use of drugs, the formation of a criminal record, out of wedlock pregnancy, etc. These are ALL choices, and they will help to keep "the poor" on the government dole.

    It is always a good idea to seek to receive what you are worth. However, YOU don't get to determine what you are worth. The MARKET determines that. Sometimes you can obtain your own idea of your worth, but most of the time, it won't happen.

    Does that help?

    Now, where is that guy who says that working people are being hurt????
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  5. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Could I ask you to condense your title statement theme into a brief explanation? How is what is being said "hurting all working people?"

    When customers that pay union companies in big cities charge more as a multiple of the hourly rate, it is because they have a stranglehold on the market in those areas. Try, I repeat, TRY to be the customer who decides to hire a competitive non-union contractor in say, Philly or New York, or Chicago. It won't happen. You are stuck with the rates every union contractor is charging.

    But please, explain how "all working people" are getting hurt.

    I love hearing stuff like this.
    Are you being sarcastic when you say "i love hearing stuff like this?" It needs no explanation. Milkman said he is destined to be a bottom feeder when it comes to how much he can command in the marketplace for his labor. What's not to understand? Do you want to be in a foxhole under enemy fire with a guy who turns to you and says "we are outnumbered, screw shooting back, we're dead"?

  6. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheelr View Post
    Are you being sarcastic when you say "i love hearing stuff like this?" It needs no explanation. Milkman said he is destined to be a bottom feeder when it comes to how much he can command in the marketplace for his labor. What's not to understand? Do you want to be in a foxhole under enemy fire with a guy who turns to you and says "we are outnumbered, screw shooting back, we're dead"?
    I was asking YOU for your articulation, more than what someone else posted.

    Some folks ARE destined to be bottom feeders. Just like the sea, we need them.

    Others will take other paths, because they take other attitudes.

    By the way, in military strategy, when you are outnumbered, you pull back to a defensible position IF YOU CAN. Smart heroes will always choose to live and fight another day.

    Yes, I am being sarcastic when someone says that one man's actions "hurt all working people." What hurts all working people is an inflated view of one's own worth, done in a group of like minded folks, like Wisconsin state workers, or my own local municipal workers. They DEMAND a lifestyle and pension that is easily double what I make, in terms of total compensation. So, I, the lowly taxpayer, has to supply the guys who essentially work for ME with a lifestyle that is TWICE what I make.

    That's what "hurts all workers."
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  7. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    I was asking YOU for your articulation, more than what someone else posted.

    Some folks ARE destined to be bottom feeders. Just like the sea, we need them.

    Others will take other paths, because they take other attitudes.

    By the way, in military strategy, when you are outnumbered, you pull back to a defensible position IF YOU CAN. Smart heroes will always choose to live and fight another day.

    Yes, I am being sarcastic when someone says that one man's actions "hurt all working people." What hurts all working people is an inflated view of one's own worth, done in a group of like minded folks, like Wisconsin state workers, or my own local municipal workers. They DEMAND a lifestyle and pension that is easily double what I make, in terms of total compensation. So, I, the lowly taxpayer, has to supply the guys who essentially work for ME with a lifestyle that is TWICE what I make.

    That's what "hurts all workers."
    So far I only mentioned union as a reference point to wages, you somehow are arguing against unions with a guy who hasn't said anything positive or negative about unions. Why are you doing that?

    Why are you backpedaling on specifics when you yourself asked me to get more specific? Do you truly believe you need Milkman to keep working harder and harder for shorter money in order for you to continue to make half as much as a state hourly worker? That's the way I read it. What am I missing? I don't need the low paid mechanics in my state to make what I make, and I make more than the state workers in my state. How do you figure some of the money low paid people don't make helps you? Does your boss give you some bonus when he stiffs somebody on a raise?

    I would like anyone who can make a living in my trade to continue to ask for a reasonable share of what their employers bill them out for. It seems obvious that would help the general economics of workers in that trade. When the billing rates and profit and overhead go up, but wages go down, how can that be a good thing?

    Try to stay away from the union nonunion hash out and just stick with this point that you yourself said you wanted a short clear explanation from me on

  8. #60
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    You were discussing specifics regarding what unions charge, and I explained the specifics of why.

    What Milkman does or does not do does not affect me very much.

    When people get together and demand more than they are worth, and they then ask ME to pay for it, it DOES affect me.

    Does that help?
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  9. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    You were discussing specifics regarding what unions charge, and I explained the specifics of why.

    What Milkman does or does not do does not affect me very much.

    When people get together and demand more than they are worth, and they then ask ME to pay for it, it DOES affect me.

    Does that help?
    help what? I was discussing the ratio of what companies charge compared to what they bill. Since the union rate is an avilable yard stick I used that. What are you claiming to have explained? The pricing strategy and business practices of big city union contractors? Forgive me if I find you underqualified and underinformed to "explain" that and why did you think it was relavent?

    You asked me to explain how workers being satisfied or resigned to low wages hurts all workers, I gave you my earnest opinion and expected you might tell me what you thought I had wrong. You didn't.

    You chose not to engage in the discussion. Your choice, but it's different from you first challenging me to explain my point isn't it? You are the one who asked for help understanding my opinion so I can't see how you're wondering whether you've helped me. I haven't asked you for anything at all.

  10. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    You were discussing specifics regarding what unions charge, and I explained the specifics of why.

    What Milkman does or does not do does not affect me very much.

    When people get together and demand more than they are worth, and they then ask ME to pay for it, it DOES affect me.

    Does that help?
    you are anti-union, seems like every topic your involved ends up with some union bashing. maybe you have some personal issues with the local near you, who knows.
    nobody ask you to pay for a thing, you are not a business owner, we are not taking public sector unions, whats wrong with getting a larger piece of the pie?

  11. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by valdelocc View Post
    you are anti-union, seems like every topic your involved ends up with some union bashing. maybe you have some personal issues with the local near you, who knows.
    nobody ask you to pay for a thing, you are not a business owner, we are not taking public sector unions, whats wrong with getting a larger piece of the pie?

    Answer:

    As long as someone pays for it willingly, nothing.

    I am being robbed blind by government employees who are making much more than those who pay for those benefits.

    We used to call such people "kings."

    Oh, and I have been a member of three unions. Public unions are extortion.
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  12. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheelr View Post
    help what? I was discussing the ratio of what companies charge compared to what they bill. Since the union rate is an avilable yard stick I used that. What are you claiming to have explained? The pricing strategy and business practices of big city union contractors? Forgive me if I find you underqualified and underinformed to "explain" that and why did you think it was relavent?

    You asked me to explain how workers being satisfied or resigned to low wages hurts all workers, I gave you my earnest opinion and expected you might tell me what you thought I had wrong. You didn't.

    You chose not to engage in the discussion. Your choice, but it's different from you first challenging me to explain my point isn't it? You are the one who asked for help understanding my opinion so I can't see how you're wondering whether you've helped me. I haven't asked you for anything at all.
    Well, you can feel free to remain ignorant.

    Milkman is not "hurting all workers," so your premise is shot all to he**.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
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  13. #65
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    May 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    You were discussing specifics regarding what unions charge, and I explained the specifics of why.

    What Milkman does or does not do does not affect me very much.

    When people get together and demand more than they are worth, and they then ask ME to pay for it, it DOES affect me.

    Does that help?
    help what? I was discussing the ratio of what companies charge compared to what they pay workers. Since the union rate is an available yard stick I used that. What are you claiming to have explained and why? The pricing strategy and business practices of big city union contractors? Forgive me if I find you underqualified and underinformed to "explain" that and why did you think it was relavent?

    You asked me to explain how workers being satisfied or resigned to low wages hurts all workers, I gave you my earnest opinion and expected you might tell me what you thought I had wrong. You didn't.

    You chose not really to engage in a debate. Your choice, but it's different from you first challenging me to explain my point isn't it? You are the one who asked for help understanding my opinion so I can't see how you're wondering whether you've helped me. I haven't asked you for anything at all. Let alone your "help"

    But if you want to "help", please ask your boss to show you how profitable your jobs have been over the years and request some monetary reward for an improving performance. If they won't show you assume they are keeping a bigger share. I can tell you for sure this will certainly help you, it helps all of us just a little.

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