How much refrigerant is left unutilized in exhausted 30 lbs cylinder?

[atoreson]

I wonder if R-22 will be cheap again (well, maybe not $129.95, which is what I bought it for at Christmas 2011); later in the fall or after the holidays? If it is... I plan to put in a pallet. When R-22 goes away, folks with 22 will have a stash of 'gold' so to say...

I suppose it all boils down to supply and demand.

A known fact is that the EPA is ratcheting down the amount that can be manufactured, faster than originally anticipated so that does significantly limit the supply.

From there, it should depend on how soon people convert from R-22, which will be ultimately dictated by money. The cost to maintain a current R-22 system, versus the cost to convert.

I don't think that the loophole was intentional. I just think that lawmakers aren't that knowledgeable when it comes to ACR. I suppose what I am getting at, is this. How could you write a law, to limit the sale of R-22 equipment?

What makes a certain piece of equipment, R-22 equipment? There are certain traits that you must have for an R-22 system but that is also very similar to other refrigerants as well.

With the right to free of speech in the bill of rights, I do not see how the govt can restrict the sale of DRY R-22 equipment.

Yes that dry equipment works with R-22 but it also works with other refrigerants as well. A company is also free to put almost anything they want as well, on their packaging label.

The only way to eliminate R-22 is to eliminate it's production and that is what the EPA has now realized... IE, why they are clamping down on production, even faster than originally intended.

Current R-22 equipment will last a long while and I think that we would have to see $800.00 to $1,000.00 a 30lb jug, before it forces people to prematurely convert to another refrigerant.

I also feel that that day will come because the EPA has significantly ratcheted up their plans to cut production. I estimate that it will take 2 to 4 years to fully convert so we should see sky high R-22 pricing for some time.

Once everyone converts, no one will want it anymore and the price will plummet.

Just my two cents.
Tony

[ga-hvac-tech]

I suppose it all boils down to supply and demand.

A known fact is that the EPA is ratcheting down the amount that can be manufactured, faster than originally anticipated so that does significantly limit the supply.

From there, it should depend on how soon people convert from R-22, which will be ultimately dictated by money. The cost to maintain a current R-22 system, versus the cost to convert.

I don't think that the loophole was intentional. I just think that lawmakers aren't that knowledgeable when it comes to ACR. I suppose what I am getting at, is this. How could you write a law, to limit the sale of R-22 equipment?

What makes a certain piece of equipment, R-22 equipment? There are certain traits that you must have for an R-22 system but that is also very similar to other refrigerants as well.

With the right to free of speech in the bill of rights, I do not see how the govt can restrict the sale of DRY R-22 equipment.

Yes that dry equipment works with R-22 but it also works with other refrigerants as well. A company is also free to put almost anything they want as well, on their packaging label.

The only way to eliminate R-22 is to eliminate it's production and that is what the EPA has now realized... IE, why they are clamping down on production, even faster than originally intended.

Current R-22 equipment will last a long while and I think that we would have to see $800.00 to $1,000.00 a 30lb jug, before it forces people to prematurely convert to another refrigerant.

I also feel that that day will come because the EPA has significantly ratcheted up their plans to cut production. I estimate that it will take 2 to 4 years to fully convert so we should see sky high R-22 pricing for some time.

Once everyone converts, no one will want it anymore and the price will plummet.

Just my two cents.
Tony

The part about commerce... I think if the lawyer types at the EPA had wanted to... they could have figured out some tricky legal language (quick law) to stop DRY units.

I chose to not do much in DRY units, simply because 10 years down the road I will have to either sell juice without much profit or sell it for a HUGE amount. Better to not back my customers into that corner. Besides; an AC/coil using 410 is cheaper (even if one does not figure in the juice) than a DRY unit and a coil. And we know a 10 SEER coil on a 13 SEER AC is not gonna work well, even with a TXV.

I do think I will put in a stock of 22 when supply/demand drops the price in the dead of winter (or the Christmas holidays). No telling what will happen in years to come. Just wish I had bought more at $129.95 last winter.

[garyed]

I think the EPA is a little upset, that the manufacturers found a loophole with the whole DRY CHARGED R-22 equipment.
..............

I really don't think it was the EPA but Carrier who was upset about the dry charged units. Carrier was the one who petitioned the EPA to stop the sale of dry units. I blame the drop in production & skyrocketing price of R22 on them.
They probably were not selling as much 410A new systems as they anticipated & blamed a lot of lost sales on dry units. The transition to 410A probably would have been much more painless for the HO if they hadn't got involved.

[atoreson]

The part about commerce... I think if the lawyer types at the EPA had wanted to... they could have figured out some tricky legal language (quick law) to stop DRY units.

I chose to not do much in DRY units, simply because 10 years down the road I will have to either sell juice without much profit or sell it for a HUGE amount. Better to not back my customers into that corner. Besides; an AC/coil using 410 is cheaper (even if one does not figure in the juice) than a DRY unit and a coil. And we know a 10 SEER coil on a 13 SEER AC is not gonna work well, even with a TXV.

I do think I will put in a stock of 22 when supply/demand drops the price in the dead of winter (or the Christmas holidays). No telling what will happen in years to come. Just wish I had bought more at $129.95 last winter.

Yea, same here on the recent price increase. I wish that I would have purchased more too.

Other than banning the manufacture of R-22, I am still not convinced that a law could be crafted, to ban the sale of the equipment. Especially when dry R-22 units, can be legitimately used with other refrigerants.

When credit rating agencies can claim that Goldman Sachs had a AAA credit rating, weeks before they go under, and successfully claim freedom of speech. I do not see how they can clamp down on what words are printed on a manufacturers packaging or promotion material.

If a law was crafted and the US Govt started being nazis about it, cracking down on DRY R-22 equipment, all the manufactures would have to do is replace R-22 with R-407c... *wink* *wink* on the label.

This is exactly why you can buy a semi automatic assault rifle and the book on how to make it fully automatic at the same time, in the United States.

That is however, just my two cents.
Tony

[ga-hvac-tech]

Yea, same here on the recent price increase. I wish that I would have purchased more too.

Other than banning the manufacture of R-22, I am still not convinced that a law could be crafted, to ban the sale of the equipment. Especially when dry R-22 units, can be legitimately used with other refrigerants.

When credit rating agencies can claim that Goldman Sachs had a AAA credit rating, weeks before they go under, and successfully claim freedom of speech. I do not see how they can clamp down on what words are printed on their packaging.

If a law was crafted and the US Govt started being nazis about it, cracking down on DRY R-22 equipment, all the manufactures would have to do is replace R-22 with R-407c... *wink* *wink* on the label.

That is however, just my two cents.
Tony

Funny you mentioned R-407C; the DRY units from Rheem/Ruud (and Weatherking, SureComfort, Thermal Zone, and I suspect other names... the CUBES) have a label saying they work with R-22 and R-407C... noticed that in April.

As to Goldman Sachs... they are SOOO deep in bed with the govt... nothing would surprise me...

Laws... well Congress as well as the office of POTUS seem to pass all kinds of laws which are blatant violations of the founding documents (Declaration, Constitution, Bill/Rights, Amendments)... however unless they are challenged in the courts... they stand. And lately the courts seem to be more political than Constitutional anyway.

Not fussing... however how about lets go to ARP if we want to talk about the courts and govt...

[jpsmith1cm]

I wonder if R-22 will be cheap again (well, maybe not $129.95, which is what I bought it for at Christmas 2011); later in the fall or after the holidays? If it is... I plan to put in a pallet. When R-22 goes away, folks with 22 will have a stash of 'gold' so to say...

Ask the folks that got stuck with a bunch of 12 and 502 how that worked out for them...



Not saying not to buy it, but don't go overboard or you'll be stuck sitting on a stash of gold that you can't get rid of...

[ICanHas]

Yes, I shudder when I see R-22 jugs being tossed at 60 to 70 psi but I am a bit of a cheapskate. I save them and recover them later.

Tony

You're required by law to recover the cylinder anyways, so might as well. Use a 3 way manifold and hook up 3 used cylinders at once. Open all 3 at once, then purge a bit at the low loss fitting by the recovery machine.

Start it up and come back later

[jpsmith1cm]

You're required by law to recover the cylinder anyways, so might as well. Use a 3 way manifold and hook up 3 used cylinders at once. Open all 3 at once, then purge a bit at the low loss fitting by the recovery machine.

Start it up and come back later

[ga-hvac-tech]

Ask the folks that got stuck with a bunch of 12 and 502 how that worked out for them...



Not saying not to buy it, but don't go overboard or you'll be stuck sitting on a stash of gold that you can't get rid of...

Good thought there... I suspect the difference is all the DRY units and all the older units. You might be right though... merits a lot of thought.

Question for folks who have been in the resi business a LONG time: How much of the business was R-12? Was it the MAIN thing for decades? If not... I wonder if the amount of resi units out there would warrant a stash of R-22?

[atoreson]

You're required by law to recover the cylinder anyways, so might as well. Use a 3 way manifold and hook up 3 used cylinders at once. Open all 3 at once, then purge a bit at the low loss fitting by the recovery machine.

Start it up and come back later

That is exactly what I do. I also try to make sure that the used cylinders are at least at room temperature.

[atoreson]

Good thought there... I suspect the difference is all the DRY units and all the older units. You might be right though... merits a lot of thought.

Question for folks who have been in the resi business a LONG time: How much of the business was R-12? Was it the MAIN thing for decades? If not... I wonder if the amount of resi units out there would warrant a stash of R-22?

That is what I was thinking as well. I think that R-22 will be around for a while as it would take a significant cost increase to persuade the average home owner to upgrade.

[ga-hvac-tech]

That is what I was thinking as well. I think that R-22 will be around for a while as it would take a significant cost increase to persuade the average home owner to upgrade.

Around here: Most equipment folks had R-22 equipment available well into the AC season of 2010 (when it was no longer made). So given the average life of 12-15 years (less for DRY units I suspect), I think we could safely say R-22 AC units (and HP's) will be around in serious numbers until at least 2020.

I guess I need to figure out how much I would use between now and 2020... say, 6-7 years to be conservative.

The other thing I am thinking: The FED (folks that control the money supply) have been increasing money at the rate of 20+% for over a year now... sooner or later price inflation will set in along with EPA 'poo'. Either/both will cause the price to go up more.

I get R-12 (yes, those cute little 1# cans) a the local auto supply for around $10/ea. None of my vehicles use 12 anymore (years ago)... but sometimes I need one or two.

[ga-hvac-tech]

One more thought: If the Nov election goes against the liberal tree-huggers; I suspect the new head of EPA (whomever Mitten appoints) will be less aggressive. Might even let a few laws slide if it is good for an economic recovery.

[atoreson]

Around here: Most equipment folks had R-22 equipment available well into the AC season of 2010 (when it was no longer made). So given the average life of 12-15 years (less for DRY units I suspect), I think we could safely say R-22 AC units (and HP's) will be around in serious numbers until at least 2020.

I guess I need to figure out how much I would use between now and 2020... say, 6-7 years to be conservative.

The other thing I am thinking: The FED (folks that control the money supply) have been increasing money at the rate of 20+% for over a year now... sooner or later price inflation will set in along with EPA 'poo'. Either/both will cause the price to go up more.

I get R-12 (yes, those cute little 1# cans) a the local auto supply for around $10/ea. None of my vehicles use 12 anymore (years ago)... but sometimes I need one or two.

Yea, I remember purchasing R-12 at the auto store for next to nothing.

The average lifespan of a car manufactured in the 80's and early 90's wasn't as long as it is now. The R-12 to R-134a switchover there was relatively quick and painless.

R-22 would also be a good hard asset with a steady demand. (in my opinion) If you converted your dollars now into R-22, you would definitely make out way above inflation... Especially when I see another round of printing money on the horizon (QE3).

I am thinking about buying about a 5 year supply as it would be a safe bet.

Tony

[atoreson]

One more thought: If the Nov election goes against the liberal tree-huggers; I suspect the new head of EPA (whomever Mitten appoints) will be less aggressive. Might even let a few laws slide if it is good for an economic recovery.

Yea, not to get political but I do not have a lot of faith in Mitt being able to win it... As long as Obama holds the economy together from a complete collapse, I think that he has a good chance of getting his second term.

Furthermore, I do not see much difference between Mitt and Obama as their top donor's are are all the same. I just do not have much faith that Mitt will change anything.

Also, big business loves to use the govt to drive up prices. Keeping the R-22 supply restricted, means more profit on selling R-22 and new R-410a equipment.

Tony

[ga-hvac-tech]

Yea, I remember purchasing R-12 at the auto store for next to nothing.

The average lifespan of a car manufactured in the 80's and early 90's wasn't as long as it is now. The R-12 to R-134a switchover there was relatively quick and painless.

R-22 would also be a good hard asset with a steady demand. (in my opinion) If you converted your dollars now into R-22, you would definitely make out way above inflation... Especially when I see another round of printing money on the horizon (QE3).

I am thinking about buying about a 5 year supply as it would be a safe bet.

Tony

With or without QE3, with or without EPA 'poo'... I think you are right on the hard asset.

I made a killing in gold and silver... unloaded in 2011... (am in Palladium now)... check out North American Palladium, stock symbol PAL on the Amex.

I just wish I had bought more R-22 at Christmas of 2011... it was $129.95, and I probably could have gotten a pallet for $15-20/jug less.

One of the supply houses was selling 410 for $55 a mos ago... limit 10. So I bought 10. Now it is over $100.

Best I have gotten recently on 22 was $289 in lots of 10.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Yea, not to get political but I do not have a lot of faith in Mitt being able to win it... As long as Obama holds the economy together from a complete collapse, I think that he has a good chance of getting his second term.

Furthermore, I do not see much difference between Mitt and Obama as their top donor's are are all the same. I just do not have much faith that Mitt will change anything.

Also, big business loves to use the govt to drive up prices. Keeping the R-22 supply restricted, means more profit on selling R-22 and new R-410a equipment.

Tony

All true statements... I see a watered down re-run of 1980 (Reagan revolution) ahead. Folks are broke around here, they want jobs and a brighter future. Literally NOBODY I talk to says they will vote for BHO again... they want more freedom and less govt.

If we really want change in govt (federal level), we need to be SURE control of the Senate goes GOP. Putting Harry Ried out to pasture would make my day, week, month, and even be a nice early Christmas present...

[atoreson]

With or without QE3, with or without EPA 'poo'... I think you are right on the hard asset.

I made a killing in gold and silver... unloaded in 2011... (am in Palladium now)... check out North American Palladium, stock symbol PAL on the Amex.

I just wish I had bought more R-22 at Christmas of 2011... it was $129.95, and I probably could have gotten a pallet for $15-20/jug less.

One of the supply houses was selling 410 for $55 a mos ago... limit 10. So I bought 10. Now it is over $100.

Best I have gotten recently on 22 was $289 in lots of 10.

Hard assets are the way to go!

I am speculating that once the 2012 AC season is through, we should see the price of refrigerant drop a bit, before it makes another steep climb next year.

I think that is when I am going to buy in.

What saddens me is that if I was the republican nominee, I would have a chance at winning because the November election is basically going to be a choice between I want more of Obama or I want change.

What also saddens me is that the republican party has, for the most part, sold out. We do not have two parties anymore... We have one with two branches. Both love big government. Both love squashing individual rights. The average American is stupid and defenseless. They need government to survive.

Politicians have become expert salesmen. They convince you that you're sick and they sell you the cure, at a substantial premium.

That, however, is just my opinion and way off topic.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Hard assets are the way to go!

I am speculating that once the 2012 AC season is through, we should see the price of refrigerant drop a bit, before it makes another steep climb next year.

I think that is when I am going to buy in.

What saddens me is that if I was the republican nominee, I would have a chance at winning because the November election is basically going to be a choice between I want more of Obama or I want change.

What also saddens me is that the republican party has, for the most part, sold out. We do not have two parties anymore... We have one with two branches. Both love big government. Both love squashing individual rights. The average American is stupid and defenseless. They need government to survive.

Politicians have become expert salesmen. They convince you that you're sick and they sell you the cure, at a substantial premium.

That, however, is just my opinion and way off topic.

I agree, hard assets will be a good place for probably another year or so. If Mitten does some good and we get a turn-around of sorts (if it does happen, I think it will be soft); then hard assets may not do quite as well. Until we see the turn... tangibles and hard assets are the way IMO.

I agree, the only choice(s) we have is more 'poo' from the existing source, or a watered down version of similar 'poo'. I did read a profile of Mitten a week or so ago... guy is brilliant as a businessman. Maybe if he has an agreeable congress he can make some headway before the 2014 mid-tern elections. I suspect by mid-term the libs will be re-organized and on the hunt.

One thing is for sure: Resi HVAC work will not go anywhere any time soon... it is a basic staple of life... the reason I chose it.
Folks will have a few things regardless:
*A roof over their head
*Food
*A big flatscreen TV
*Some form of transportation, and
*Heating and AC
Any one of those businesses a guy/gal can make $$$ at... well they will do OK.

Cheers.

[ICanHas]

In resi work; most times a jug of 22 gets tossed when it no longer has enough pressure in it to push gas into a resi AC (or HP) system.

Maybe in 1985.

During the transition phase, cylinders were marked that it is no longer lawful to dispose of the said remainder by venting it. This is NOT de minimus venting. By now, this is a common knowledge.

So, such a means of disposal is illegal and unprofessional.