Geo-Thermal Questions

[Six]

A tech in the biz told me install is around 6k a ton. I dont see how you can justify that upfront cost considering there are very efficient high seer two stage units that cost a fraction of that.

I told him that geo thermal like every other green energy inspired nonsensical initiative will die out. Where do you get parts for your Solyndra heat pumps anyway ?

[Chuck]

I don't know where you're from or what your agenda is.

Here we routinely get payback periods of 6 - 8 years comparing to LP or Oil heat. Air source heat pumps don't heat to cold enough outdoor temps so a lot of backup would still be needed.

Are there climates that geo makes less sense? Most likely. But to make a blanket statement that they are a waste of money is somewhat ignorant.

Also many replacement systems go in for substantially less than 6K per ton.

Now, what do you have against Geothermal heat pumps?

[Six]

I don't know where you're from or what your agenda is.

Here we routinely get payback periods of 6 - 8 years comparing to LP or Oil heat. Air source heat pumps don't heat to cold enough outdoor temps so a lot of backup would still be needed.

Are there climates that geo makes less sense? Most likely. But to make a blanket statement that they are a waste of money is somewhat ignorant.

Also many replacement systems go in for substantially less than 6K per ton.

Now, what do you have against Geothermal heat pumps?

Are you a dealer ?? If so don't you think its hard to be objective ? The guy I talked to swore by Geo-Thermal to.

No doubt it's an interesting concept but I guess my main issue with Geo-Thermal other than the install cost is political.

The people that publicly advocate these systems always include some aspect of the green energy agenda into their sales pitch.

Sorry but there is no bigger scam set upon the human race at this time than the green energy initiative along with it's Daddy global warming. They changed it to climate change because we're actually cooling now.....go figure.

Any system that's worth that kind of scratch should be able to stand on it's own merits without a foray into climate propaganda.


If efficiency is a stand out attribute then that's great but wouldn't a high SEER heat pump or a two stage high SEER unit be comparable in efficiency and quality minus the massive up front investment ?

Beware the sales pitch that almost always includes how humans are somehow destroying the planet. The majority of green initiatives are based on hyperbolic demagoguery with little to no factual basis. Scare tactics.

[2010]

wth? geos are awesome. so what your saying is a 18 seer ac or hp is just as efficent as a 30+ seer geo? i dont understand .... we dont push on the whole "green thing" well sell on saving the customer in major energy savings in the long run. also geos last a VERY long time.

[Chuck]

We don't sell them on their "green" merits, although to a few customers that is important.

We sell them because they are an investment with a very good return.

I had a wealthy customer tell me after 4 years on a geo system that cost him 40K that it was the best thing he could have done with his 40K. He told me there was nowhere else he could have invested that money to get a better ROI. He switched from high efficiency LP furnaces.

And he is not alone, we have many, many happy Geo customers.

Do you know how to figure? As in math?

LP at $2 per gallon. Furnace efficiency of 90%
Fuel oil at $3.90 per gallon. Efficiency of 80%
Electricity at $.12 per KWH
Geo heat pump COP of 4 (many times it is really in the 4.5 to 5 range but we will be conservative)
Air source heat pump with an average 2.5 COP (2.0 is more realistic on a full winter basis, but we'll be conservative)

Now let's figure out how much money we have to shell out to buy ourselves a million BTUs;
LP furnace: $24.37
Oil furnace: $33.85
Geo heat pump: $ 8.79
Air source heat pump: $14.06


That is how much 1 million BTUs cost with each of those different systems. Let's just say your house takes a million btus to heat it for a week, which system do you want to buy BTUs for???

Keep in mind, in most climates the air source heat pump will not keep up all winter without a substantial amount of auxiliary heat which brings it's overall efficiency down.

In cooling the efficiency of geo is more than double that of air source equipment, so there is no argument there either.

[SolarMike]

Are you a dealer ?? If so don't you think its hard to be objective ? The guy I talked to swore by Geo-Thermal to.

No doubt it's an interesting concept but I guess my main issue with Geo-Thermal other than the install cost is political.

The people that publicly advocate these systems always include some aspect of the green energy agenda into their sales pitch.

Sorry but there is no bigger scam set upon the human race at this time than the green energy initiative along with it's Daddy global warming. They changed it to climate change because we're actually cooling now.....go figure.

Any system that's worth that kind of scratch should be able to stand on it's own merits without a foray into climate propaganda.


If efficiency is a stand out attribute then that's great but wouldn't a high SEER heat pump or a two stage high SEER unit be comparable in efficiency and quality minus the massive up front investment ?

Beware the sales pitch that almost always includes how humans are somehow destroying the planet. The majority of green initiatives are based on hyperbolic demagoguery with little to no factual basis. Scare tactics.

Dude, I have no idea what you are comparing geo with but most people don't put it in to save the planet (whether you think global warming is BS or not is irrevelant). They put it in to save money. A well designed system comes in cheaper to run than natural gas and way cheaper than oil or propane or electricity. Do your homework before make silly comments.

[waterpirate]

Geothermal as political tool????

We have been installing geothermal since 1980. That preceeded any govt. incentive by more than a decade. There is a reason I do not engage in conversations about a lot of things..... It is because I am not knowledgable enough about them to add anything helpfull. I think this may be your issue.

To quote pricing without identifying what type of exchanger we are talking about, what the load is, or more importantly where you are on the planet is folly.

I will help to educate you but you will need to do some homework.

First assignment:
How many types of exchangers are there for geothermal?
Eric

[Six]

Geothermal as political tool????

We have been installing geothermal since 1980. That preceeded any govt. incentive by more than a decade. There is a reason I do not engage in conversations about a lot of things..... It is because I am not knowledgable enough about them to add anything helpfull. I think this may be your issue.

To quote pricing without identifying what type of exchanger we are talking about, what the load is, or more importantly where you are on the planet is folly.

I will help to educate you but you will need to do some homework.

First assignment:
How many types of exchangers are there for geothermal?
Eric

We have a home improvement talk radio show that comes on every weekend. There's a company that rep's Geo Thermal equipment locally that comes on every once in a while.

Going green seems to be the seems to be the focal point of their sales pitch and that's tied into efficiency.

Oh and the title of the section in this forum for Geo-Thermal is " Going Green: Geo Thermal Water Source "


Ill spend some time to get more knowledgeable about Geo-Thermal in general and as it compares to conventional systems in price and efficiency and check back in.

But from what I know now it seems like a niche market with its higher than conventional install price.

[waterpirate]

What you know now amounts to "about a thimble full of loose talk and misconceptions" with no real data.

Data and understanding will save you.
Eric

[Six]

What you know now amounts to "about a thimble full of loose talk and misconceptions" with no real data.

Data and understanding will save you.
Eric

A 100 bux says your in the geo-thermal industry. lol....its hillarious.



I said I would look into it more before adding any more comments on the practicallity of geo thermal.


To do that objectively I need NOT ask a Geo Thermal salesman why its practical.

Pros and Cons, you get it.

One things certain. Geo Thermal is supported by people who are in the geo thermal industry !

I can check that off my list.

[ChrisJ RI]

CT77,
I am not "in the geo industry", Just someone w/geo in my 2 yr old home. Here are some numbers to think about.
Old house 1200' ranch, oil heat, propane for stove and of course an electric bill.
10 month oil budget 330.00 month, electric bill 100.00 mon average. + propane= 4600.00

New house 2000' ranch geo for heat, a/c, 100% DHW. All electric= 2100.00 yr.

Paid about 10-12k more then a typical heating with a/c system. I live in a bigger house and will save enough on utilities to pay back the difference in 5 yrs.

Chris

[waterpirate]

Geothermal salesman?
Thats so funny I ruined another keyboard!

A funny thing about the internet is the amount of people who do not fill out their profiles. Mine is complete, is yours?
Eric

[Six]

Geothermal salesman?
Thats so funny I ruined another keyboard!

A funny thing about the internet is the amount of people who do not fill out their profiles. Mine is complete, is yours?
Eric

Wasnt really refering to you personally, just making a point on the importance of making an objective decision.

You are in the indusrty right ?

[Six]

CT77,
I am not "in the geo industry", Just someone w/geo in my 2 yr old home. Here are some numbers to think about.
Old house 1200' ranch, oil heat, propane for stove and of course an electric bill.
10 month oil budget 330.00 month, electric bill 100.00 mon average. + propane= 4600.00

New house 2000' ranch geo for heat, a/c, 100% DHW. All electric= 2100.00 yr.

Paid about 10-12k more then a typical heating with a/c system. I live in a bigger house and will save enough on utilities to pay back the difference in 5 yrs.

Chris

What region of thr US do you live in ?

Seems geo is less prevalent and less practical in Southern areas. I live in Houston and just dont see how Geo ould compete with a high SEER conventional HP or high SEER a/c with a natural gas furnace in upfront cost and effeciency over time.

[waterpirate]

What region of thr US do you live in ?

Seems geo is less prevalent and less practical in Southern areas. I live in Houston and just dont see how Geo ould compete with a high SEER conventional HP or high SEER a/c with a natural gas furnace in upfront cost and effeciency over time.

Finally something to chew on!

The key to any geothermal system is the type of exchanger you choose to install and the region of the country you live in. Typically every region of the country has allready decided or found the best exchanger for it's location.

How do you know which exchanger is the best? It is the one that is the most cost effective to install while yielding the most reliable results in your locale.

Just hearing that a product is expensive and you can not afford it, is just bull. The trick is to find the honest proffesional in your AO that is presenting real world options not just a sales pitch as you have allready pointed out.

Some things I have heard about Texas are: horizontal, vertical, DX, and a smattering of open loops.

And yes I am not only the president of hair club for men, I am also a client.

If you want to talk about some of the stuff I mentioned, start another thread so people do not have to read to page 2 to get info.
Eric

[SolarMike]

A 100 bux says your in the geo-thermal industry. lol....its hillarious.



I said I would look into it more before adding any more comments on the practicallity of geo thermal.


To do that objectively I need NOT ask a Geo Thermal salesman why its practical.

Pros and Cons, you get it.

One things certain. Geo Thermal is supported by people who are in the geo thermal industry !

I can check that off my list.

You can listen to Geo salesmen and you can believe them or not but you need to look up the actual stats to be sure.

Geo is sold as a green product and it is to some extent and depending how the electricity is made it could be more or less green. Where I am from very little of the power comes from dirty sources so Geo is GREEN. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have to do with your kids asthma rates. Ground level ozone makes smog and that comes from burning fossil fuels and that affects everyone.

That, sir, is self preservation.........or you can call it green. Regardless, it is a "conservative" thing to do.

[Six]

You can listen to Geo salesmen and you can believe them or not but you need to look up the actual stats to be sure.

Geo is sold as a green product and it is to some extent and depending how the electricity is made it could be more or less green. Where I am from very little of the power comes from dirty sources so Geo is GREEN. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have to do with your kids asthma rates. Ground level ozone makes smog and that comes from burning fossil fuels and that affects everyone.

That, sir, is self preservation.........or you can call it green. Regardless, it is a "conservative" thing to do.

Resorting to demagoguery in an attempt to legitimize a product is akin to selling snake oil. It doesn't help your argument.

Come down on fossil fuels to soon and we can replace asthma with diseases like anemia, scurvy, pellagra and a host of other afflictions caused by starvation. Like it or not fossil fuels are the blood of our economy.

Millions more unemployed as punitive govt standards are mandated that drives up the cost of goods and services who are left without a social safety net because the dollar is all but worthless due to mass inflation from printing and borrowing.


Hows that for demagogy. The liberal EPA idiot that just resigned because he let the cat out of the bag is a good example of this govts intentions.

That said I will form my own opinion about Geo- thermal when Im a bit more educated. All Ive heard so far is its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Its not a good start for geo thermal is it when all you get is the fluff

[Chuck]

Resorting to demagoguery in an attempt to legitimize a product is akin to selling snake oil. It doesn't help your argument.

Come down on fossil fuels to soon and we can replace asthma with diseases like anemia, scurvy, pellagra and a host of other afflictions caused by starvation. Like it or not fossil fuels are the blood of our economy.

Millions more unemployed as punitive govt standards are mandated that drives up the cost of goods and services who are left without a social safety net because the dollar is all but worthless due to mass inflation from printing and borrowing.


Hows that for demagogy. The liberal EPA idiot that just resigned because he let the cat out of the bag is a good example of this govts intentions.

That said I will form my own opinion about Geo- thermal when Im a bit more educated. All Ive heard so far is its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Its not a good start for geo thermal is it when all you get is the fluff

Fluff??

I put down very solid numbers, no fluff.

Also, I am not in the geothermal industry, whatever that is. I fix HVAC/R equipment and couldn't care less if you or others buy geo equipment or not. It won't affect my paycheck.

Thirdly, I stated in this thread that geo makes less sense in some areas but you refused to say where you were from until post 14! If you don't want geo, just don't buy it!! Simple, right?

I objected to your nonsensical posts simply because there was false info in them. Geothermal heating and cooling has been around for close to a century now and is proven to work and work well. Not something new because of a "green movement", give me a break. The reason it is getting more popular now is higher energy costs.

[Six]

Fluff??

I put down very solid numbers, no fluff.

Also, I am not in the geothermal industry, whatever that is. I fix HVAC/R equipment and couldn't care less if you or others buy geo equipment or not. It won't affect my paycheck.

Thirdly, I stated in this thread that geo makes less sense in some areas but you refused to say where you were from until post 14! If you don't want geo, just don't buy it!! Simple, right?

I objected to your nonsensical posts simply because there was false info in them. Geothermal heating and cooling has been around for close to a century now and is proven to work and work well. Not something new because of a "green movement", give me a break. The reason it is getting more popular now is higher energy costs.

Its been around for a long time but its popularity of late has shot through the roof because ...your right...high energy cost. Saying that the people who sale the stuff or represent the the stuff don't use the whole green energy approach as a pitch is just naive.

It should be able to stand on its own merits without demagoguery and scare tactics.

All I'm saying is there are other alternatives which are also highly efficient and more practical depending on your location and I have yet to justify the expense of geo thermal installation at this time.

You never know, I may change my mind but I'm going to look at the pros and cons.


Energy prices are high NOT because of limited supplies. You realize that right ? Demonizing oil companies with misinformation and limiting their access to federal lands and the Gulf for exploration only hurts the middle class.

Implementing draconian and punitive Federal standards through the use of EPA regulations with the shadow intent of putting companies that produce carbon emissions out of business only hurts the middle class.

Tanking the dollar which is the currency used to buy and sell oil on the world market by printing and borrowing trillions to sustain a collapsing social safety net as stupid liberal policies drive the Country further into economic despair hurts the middle class.

Forcing punitive arbitrary standards on coal companies only hurts the middle class as we pay to have their factories retrofitted by way of higher electric bills.

Giving "green companies " BILLIONS in guaranteed federal loans and grants just to watch them go out of business and the money disappear is bad for the middle class.

Al gore mentioned that the seas would rise and parts of Florida and the gulf states would be under water by now. He just bought a beach house recently.....guess where.

Do I need to post links to the above statements to prove their validity ?

I live in Houston by the way.

So I have little respect for the green energy initiative right now and think it's just another scam.

Its part of the title for geo-thermal on this forum.......twice.

[Hvac216]

I don't know much about geo but the people I've came across that have them love them. There not very popular in northeast Ohio yet, or if they are there a small group of companies that actually service them. The "greenest" i go would be a high eff 2 stage hp with a nat gas modulating furnace for a fraction of the cost. Are they really in the 40k range to install? Up here it seems like that would be tough to get a return on investment? What is their lifespan? Thanks.