What region of thr US do you live in ?
Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI
Seems geo is less prevalent and less practical in Southern areas. I live in Houston and just dont see how Geo ould compete with a high SEER conventional HP or high SEER a/c with a natural gas furnace in upfront cost and effeciency over time.
Finally something to chew on!
Originally Posted by commtech77
The key to any geothermal system is the type of exchanger you choose to install and the region of the country you live in. Typically every region of the country has allready decided or found the best exchanger for it's location.
How do you know which exchanger is the best? It is the one that is the most cost effective to install while yielding the most reliable results in your locale.
Just hearing that a product is expensive and you can not afford it, is just bull. The trick is to find the honest proffesional in your AO that is presenting real world options not just a sales pitch as you have allready pointed out.
Some things I have heard about Texas are: horizontal, vertical, DX, and a smattering of open loops.
And yes I am not only the president of hair club for men, I am also a client.
If you want to talk about some of the stuff I mentioned, start another thread so people do not have to read to page 2 to get info.
You can listen to Geo salesmen and you can believe them or not but you need to look up the actual stats to be sure.
Originally Posted by commtech77
Geo is sold as a green product and it is to some extent and depending how the electricity is made it could be more or less green. Where I am from very little of the power comes from dirty sources so Geo is GREEN. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have to do with your kids asthma rates. Ground level ozone makes smog and that comes from burning fossil fuels and that affects everyone.
That, sir, is self preservation.........or you can call it green. Regardless, it is a "conservative" thing to do.
Resorting to demagoguery in an attempt to legitimize a product is akin to selling snake oil. It doesn't help your argument.
Originally Posted by SolarMike
Come down on fossil fuels to soon and we can replace asthma with diseases like anemia, scurvy, pellagra and a host of other afflictions caused by starvation. Like it or not fossil fuels are the blood of our economy.
Millions more unemployed as punitive govt standards are mandated that drives up the cost of goods and services who are left without a social safety net because the dollar is all but worthless due to mass inflation from printing and borrowing.
Hows that for demagogy. The liberal EPA idiot that just resigned because he let the cat out of the bag is a good example of this govts intentions.
That said I will form my own opinion about Geo- thermal when Im a bit more educated. All Ive heard so far is its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Its not a good start for geo thermal is it when all you get is the fluff
Its been around for a long time but its popularity of late has shot through the roof because ...your right...high energy cost. Saying that the people who sale the stuff or represent the the stuff don't use the whole green energy approach as a pitch is just naive.
Originally Posted by chuckcrj
It should be able to stand on its own merits without demagoguery and scare tactics.
All I'm saying is there are other alternatives which are also highly efficient and more practical depending on your location and I have yet to justify the expense of geo thermal installation at this time.
You never know, I may change my mind but I'm going to look at the pros and cons.
Energy prices are high NOT because of limited supplies. You realize that right ? Demonizing oil companies with misinformation and limiting their access to federal lands and the Gulf for exploration only hurts the middle class.
Implementing draconian and punitive Federal standards through the use of EPA regulations with the shadow intent of putting companies that produce carbon emissions out of business only hurts the middle class.
Tanking the dollar which is the currency used to buy and sell oil on the world market by printing and borrowing trillions to sustain a collapsing social safety net as stupid liberal policies drive the Country further into economic despair hurts the middle class.
Forcing punitive arbitrary standards on coal companies only hurts the middle class as we pay to have their factories retrofitted by way of higher electric bills.
Giving "green companies " BILLIONS in guaranteed federal loans and grants just to watch them go out of business and the money disappear is bad for the middle class.
Al gore mentioned that the seas would rise and parts of Florida and the gulf states would be under water by now. He just bought a beach house recently.....guess where.
Do I need to post links to the above statements to prove their validity ?
I live in Houston by the way.
So I have little respect for the green energy initiative right now and think it's just another scam.
Its part of the title for geo-thermal on this forum.......twice.
I don't know much about geo but the people I've came across that have them love them. There not very popular in northeast Ohio yet, or if they are there a small group of companies that actually service them. The "greenest" i go would be a high eff 2 stage hp with a nat gas modulating furnace for a fraction of the cost. Are they really in the 40k range to install? Up here it seems like that would be tough to get a return on investment? What is their lifespan? Thanks.
That 40k install included 2 complete dual fuel geo systems; two 2 stage vs furnaces with 2 geo heat pumps. (owner was somewhat anal and wanted full gas backup).
Originally Posted by Hvac216
Not your average geo install.
Cool thanks. I'd like to get into them and talk my boss into starting to install them. Green, efficiency, or whatever it sounds like a moneymaker.
I hate politics. We chose to market our services and avoid the use of wording like "green" specifically to avoid dealing with people who have the mindset of the OP and any possible discussion of politics.
Water source geothermal is about economics. The economics of operating costs over the life of the system. Whether the economics work for you or not depends on your geographic location and the cost to construct the exchanger.
In our are the real truth is that climate master is providing quality geothermal units to contractors for 10-15% more over standard heat pumps and if you spec high effeciency units then the cost is a wash.
That leaves only the cost of the exchanger as the up cost to the system. Hdpe pipe is gauranteed for 50 years minimum so the if loops are chosen for the exchanger, that purchase will last for the life of the home, or beyond.
The biggest benefit is that you will be heating and cooling your home efficiently at a lower cost than fossil fuel. My problem with all fossil fuels is that they are a traded commodity, the traders set the the price based on real or assumed demand. The distributors then can charge whatever the market will bear.
Unless we are talking about California, most electric rates are controlled by a regulated body within the state. That means price control by an oversight commission that sets the level of profit allowed to be made by something the average household can not do without. All that equals long term price stability for the energy required to run the compressor to make heat or cooling.
We also avoid any pay back, pay for itself marketing. Geo is a choice and it is not for everyone. What is true is that everyone in this day and time expects to heat and cool their home, how they choose to do it will effect the homes operateing budget for the life of the equipment.
Now the rebate from uncle sam. In most regions of the country the cost to construct the exchanger for a geothermal system is 30% or less of the total cost of the project. That is why the rebate is 30%. It was meant to encourage people to make an energy effecient choice to heat and cool. In our area the cost to construct vertical loops is about 15% of total cost of project so that leaves you with more than adequate incentive to level the playing field.
Originally Posted by commtech77
This is nuts. Are you saying that just because we now rely on oil and gas for much of our energy we should not bother with options? I guess you want to live in a little world where things don't change. Good luck finding it.
Geo, like a furnace or boiler is a choice people make, some because there is no gas around, some because they want a lower carbon footprint. It doesn't matter why, it is their choice.
Any company who advertises their product as GREEN is free to do so as long as they aren't throwing BS at people. Costs to run the HPs have been shown and they are correct and since you live in Texas, look at the cooling SEER rates. Your furnace cant beat that.
How long do they last? I know a guy who has been using his old Westinghouse air source HP for 30 years and it is still going strong. Annual COP is still around 2.8....... IN TORONTO
my 2 cents
Commtech I see the world much as you do, to say the least I am not a P.C. person. I have another reason to cut back on energy. Our country is at war and we are paying for people that want to kill us. I don't want to be a part of that. I put in geo 3 years ago and it cut my total electric bill by over 30%. my wife and I bought 2 Prius cars and we get 54 miles to the gallon and it is the best car I have owned. As for being green that is not for me, I think God made me and he loves me. Somethings he lets me control and others he is in charge of like the temperature on earth or the sea level. This planet will last as long as he wants it to and it will give us all we need to live on. Just a few years ago we thought we were running out of fuel now we know that in the US we have 100 years of natural gas and oil in the ground. We just need a president that will let us get it.
I am in the Northeast region, heating dominated. Cooling dominated areas can use GSHP's with a good vertical heat exchanger.
Originally Posted by commtech77