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  1. #1
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    Geo-Thermal Questions

    A tech in the biz told me install is around 6k a ton. I dont see how you can justify that upfront cost considering there are very efficient high seer two stage units that cost a fraction of that.

    I told him that geo thermal like every other green energy inspired nonsensical initiative will die out. Where do you get parts for your Solyndra heat pumps anyway ?

  2. #2
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    I don't know where you're from or what your agenda is.

    Here we routinely get payback periods of 6 - 8 years comparing to LP or Oil heat. Air source heat pumps don't heat to cold enough outdoor temps so a lot of backup would still be needed.

    Are there climates that geo makes less sense? Most likely. But to make a blanket statement that they are a waste of money is somewhat ignorant.

    Also many replacement systems go in for substantially less than 6K per ton.

    Now, what do you have against Geothermal heat pumps?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckcrj View Post
    I don't know where you're from or what your agenda is.

    Here we routinely get payback periods of 6 - 8 years comparing to LP or Oil heat. Air source heat pumps don't heat to cold enough outdoor temps so a lot of backup would still be needed.

    Are there climates that geo makes less sense? Most likely. But to make a blanket statement that they are a waste of money is somewhat ignorant.

    Also many replacement systems go in for substantially less than 6K per ton.

    Now, what do you have against Geothermal heat pumps?
    Are you a dealer ?? If so don't you think its hard to be objective ? The guy I talked to swore by Geo-Thermal to.

    No doubt it's an interesting concept but I guess my main issue with Geo-Thermal other than the install cost is political.

    The people that publicly advocate these systems always include some aspect of the green energy agenda into their sales pitch.

    Sorry but there is no bigger scam set upon the human race at this time than the green energy initiative along with it's Daddy global warming. They changed it to climate change because we're actually cooling now.....go figure.

    Any system that's worth that kind of scratch should be able to stand on it's own merits without a foray into climate propaganda.


    If efficiency is a stand out attribute then that's great but wouldn't a high SEER heat pump or a two stage high SEER unit be comparable in efficiency and quality minus the massive up front investment ?

    Beware the sales pitch that almost always includes how humans are somehow destroying the planet. The majority of green initiatives are based on hyperbolic demagoguery with little to no factual basis. Scare tactics.

  4. #4
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    wth? geos are awesome. so what your saying is a 18 seer ac or hp is just as efficent as a 30+ seer geo? i dont understand .... we dont push on the whole "green thing" well sell on saving the customer in major energy savings in the long run. also geos last a VERY long time.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    Are you a dealer ?? If so don't you think its hard to be objective ? The guy I talked to swore by Geo-Thermal to.

    No doubt it's an interesting concept but I guess my main issue with Geo-Thermal other than the install cost is political.

    The people that publicly advocate these systems always include some aspect of the green energy agenda into their sales pitch.

    Sorry but there is no bigger scam set upon the human race at this time than the green energy initiative along with it's Daddy global warming. They changed it to climate change because we're actually cooling now.....go figure.

    Any system that's worth that kind of scratch should be able to stand on it's own merits without a foray into climate propaganda.


    If efficiency is a stand out attribute then that's great but wouldn't a high SEER heat pump or a two stage high SEER unit be comparable in efficiency and quality minus the massive up front investment ?

    Beware the sales pitch that almost always includes how humans are somehow destroying the planet. The majority of green initiatives are based on hyperbolic demagoguery with little to no factual basis. Scare tactics.
    Dude, I have no idea what you are comparing geo with but most people don't put it in to save the planet (whether you think global warming is BS or not is irrevelant). They put it in to save money. A well designed system comes in cheaper to run than natural gas and way cheaper than oil or propane or electricity. Do your homework before make silly comments.

  6. #6
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    We don't sell them on their "green" merits, although to a few customers that is important.

    We sell them because they are an investment with a very good return.

    I had a wealthy customer tell me after 4 years on a geo system that cost him 40K that it was the best thing he could have done with his 40K. He told me there was nowhere else he could have invested that money to get a better ROI. He switched from high efficiency LP furnaces.

    And he is not alone, we have many, many happy Geo customers.

    Do you know how to figure? As in math?

    LP at $2 per gallon. Furnace efficiency of 90%
    Fuel oil at $3.90 per gallon. Efficiency of 80%
    Electricity at $.12 per KWH
    Geo heat pump COP of 4 (many times it is really in the 4.5 to 5 range but we will be conservative)
    Air source heat pump with an average 2.5 COP (2.0 is more realistic on a full winter basis, but we'll be conservative)

    Now let's figure out how much money we have to shell out to buy ourselves a million BTUs;
    LP furnace: $24.37
    Oil furnace: $33.85
    Geo heat pump: $ 8.79
    Air source heat pump: $14.06


    That is how much 1 million BTUs cost with each of those different systems. Let's just say your house takes a million btus to heat it for a week, which system do you want to buy BTUs for???

    Keep in mind, in most climates the air source heat pump will not keep up all winter without a substantial amount of auxiliary heat which brings it's overall efficiency down.

    In cooling the efficiency of geo is more than double that of air source equipment, so there is no argument there either.

  7. #7
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    Geothermal as political tool????

    We have been installing geothermal since 1980. That preceeded any govt. incentive by more than a decade. There is a reason I do not engage in conversations about a lot of things..... It is because I am not knowledgable enough about them to add anything helpfull. I think this may be your issue.

    To quote pricing without identifying what type of exchanger we are talking about, what the load is, or more importantly where you are on the planet is folly.

    I will help to educate you but you will need to do some homework.

    First assignment:
    How many types of exchangers are there for geothermal?
    Eric

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterpirate View Post
    Geothermal as political tool????

    We have been installing geothermal since 1980. That preceeded any govt. incentive by more than a decade. There is a reason I do not engage in conversations about a lot of things..... It is because I am not knowledgable enough about them to add anything helpfull. I think this may be your issue.

    To quote pricing without identifying what type of exchanger we are talking about, what the load is, or more importantly where you are on the planet is folly.

    I will help to educate you but you will need to do some homework.

    First assignment:
    How many types of exchangers are there for geothermal?
    Eric
    We have a home improvement talk radio show that comes on every weekend. There's a company that rep's Geo Thermal equipment locally that comes on every once in a while.

    Going green seems to be the seems to be the focal point of their sales pitch and that's tied into efficiency.

    Oh and the title of the section in this forum for Geo-Thermal is " Going Green: Geo Thermal Water Source "


    Ill spend some time to get more knowledgeable about Geo-Thermal in general and as it compares to conventional systems in price and efficiency and check back in.

    But from what I know now it seems like a niche market with its higher than conventional install price.

  9. #9
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    What you know now amounts to "about a thimble full of loose talk and misconceptions" with no real data.

    Data and understanding will save you.
    Eric

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterpirate View Post
    What you know now amounts to "about a thimble full of loose talk and misconceptions" with no real data.

    Data and understanding will save you.
    Eric
    A 100 bux says your in the geo-thermal industry. lol....its hillarious.



    I said I would look into it more before adding any more comments on the practicallity of geo thermal.


    To do that objectively I need NOT ask a Geo Thermal salesman why its practical.

    Pros and Cons, you get it.

    One things certain. Geo Thermal is supported by people who are in the geo thermal industry !

    I can check that off my list.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    A 100 bux says your in the geo-thermal industry. lol....its hillarious.



    I said I would look into it more before adding any more comments on the practicallity of geo thermal.


    To do that objectively I need NOT ask a Geo Thermal salesman why its practical.

    Pros and Cons, you get it.

    One things certain. Geo Thermal is supported by people who are in the geo thermal industry !

    I can check that off my list.
    You can listen to Geo salesmen and you can believe them or not but you need to look up the actual stats to be sure.

    Geo is sold as a green product and it is to some extent and depending how the electricity is made it could be more or less green. Where I am from very little of the power comes from dirty sources so Geo is GREEN. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have to do with your kids asthma rates. Ground level ozone makes smog and that comes from burning fossil fuels and that affects everyone.

    That, sir, is self preservation.........or you can call it green. Regardless, it is a "conservative" thing to do.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarMike View Post
    You can listen to Geo salesmen and you can believe them or not but you need to look up the actual stats to be sure.

    Geo is sold as a green product and it is to some extent and depending how the electricity is made it could be more or less green. Where I am from very little of the power comes from dirty sources so Geo is GREEN. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have to do with your kids asthma rates. Ground level ozone makes smog and that comes from burning fossil fuels and that affects everyone.

    That, sir, is self preservation.........or you can call it green. Regardless, it is a "conservative" thing to do.
    Resorting to demagoguery in an attempt to legitimize a product is akin to selling snake oil. It doesn't help your argument.

    Come down on fossil fuels to soon and we can replace asthma with diseases like anemia, scurvy, pellagra and a host of other afflictions caused by starvation. Like it or not fossil fuels are the blood of our economy.

    Millions more unemployed as punitive govt standards are mandated that drives up the cost of goods and services who are left without a social safety net because the dollar is all but worthless due to mass inflation from printing and borrowing.


    Hows that for demagogy. The liberal EPA idiot that just resigned because he let the cat out of the bag is a good example of this govts intentions.

    That said I will form my own opinion about Geo- thermal when Im a bit more educated. All Ive heard so far is its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Its not a good start for geo thermal is it when all you get is the fluff

  13. #13
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    CT77,
    I am not "in the geo industry", Just someone w/geo in my 2 yr old home. Here are some numbers to think about.
    Old house 1200' ranch, oil heat, propane for stove and of course an electric bill.
    10 month oil budget 330.00 month, electric bill 100.00 mon average. + propane= 4600.00

    New house 2000' ranch geo for heat, a/c, 100% DHW. All electric= 2100.00 yr.

    Paid about 10-12k more then a typical heating with a/c system. I live in a bigger house and will save enough on utilities to pay back the difference in 5 yrs.

    Chris

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