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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    152
    I was just quoted a couple of prices for a simple change-out, from a local Trane dealer. An XR13 unit, and an XL14i unit, both with the TWE Vari-speed AH.

    Their equipment cost was the same between R410 and R22, so we got into a discussion about refer. "I wouldn't put that new stuff in *my* house..." he said. "The industry won't fully adopt R410 anyway - there so many drop-ins out there, that everyone will go with those; they're more popular".

    I quoted a fact I read on Honeywell's website, about R410 being more efficient at heat-transfer; and this was confirmed by a member here. "Bah! --actually the opposite is true - I'd stick with an R22 system..." he said. He gave me prices of refer -(that I won't mention here), where R410 seemed to cost 120% more than R22.

    I've got a bit of an airflow issue in my house; and if I had a vari-speed AH put in, I'd never get air in that paticular room. I asked him about the price diff. between the Trane TWE, and a single-speed unit - "I wouldn't do it.. I wouldn't put it in; you'd have to call another dealer then..." (Scare tactic?)

    I can see that this contractor wants things HIS way, and not *MY* way (I'm the guy with the money...) Quote was given in writing, non-itemized. Since there was an existing unit, he didn't do a Man-J calc.

    Comments?

  2. #2
    I had a guy tell me his price for R22. It was 100% higher than what we buy at work.

    What kind if issue makes you not want a variable speed air handler?

    I read a study done in Austria showing R410a was more efficeint then R22 in the cold range then a DOE reprot show it is slightly less above 95 F and up to 6% less at 135 F.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    628
    3 bids isn't just about price, you are also going to get 3 opinions on how to do the job.

    I don't think there is a consensus on which is better, but some brands don't have 410. Not saying this is the case, but many people don't care for what they don't sell.

    Read a bunch of the posts here and you will find many questions already answered.

    I kind of wanted a variable speed furnace, but so far its looking like too expensive for my mild climate.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    152
    <blockquote><br>
    Quote:
    What kind if issue makes you not want a variable speed air handler?
    </blockquote>
    Cost mainly; I'm trying to do this w/o bells & whistles. A lady I work with had to have a vari-speed AH removed, becuase it wouldn't keep her house cool. Another reason the Trane dealer wanted me to have a vari-speed, was that it removed alot more moisture than single speed. I guess this is related to the speed at which air moves thru the coil?

    Are vari-speeds recomended for systems that have air-flow problems? I know the response here will be "get your flow problem fixed..." though. I'd like to do one step at a time.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    249
    VS can help get air to the farthest supply outlets from the indoor unit/fan,but it has limits and won't solve the worst ones.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,597
    is home depot involved here?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,415
    I think you are getting some misinformation somewhere. A variable speed blower didn't affect your co-worker cooling or heating her home. Duct issues, poor sizing or setup did. In fact a variable speed blower has more get up & go in a poor duct system that can help move air. Here's an example without getting too technical.

    the TEC series 3 ton with .3" external static moves 1270 CFM of air, great for a 3 ton system. But rarely does a duct system with pleated filter have that low of a resistance reading. So taken with a real world .6" static, that same air handler can only more 1065 CFM. That's little more than a 2.5 ton system would want. But the variable speed unit at a restrictive .7" static still moves 1200 CFM.

    As for which juice, I'd put R22 equipment today but wouldn't hesitate in putting whatever the customer wanted for their home and would try to talk them out of R410a if they wanted it. I do believe it is what we will have after 2010.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    152
    Original Poster: Nope, no Home Depot. This was a privately-owned business that came to see me. 35 years in business.

    I'll post my experience with AmericanStanard on Tuesday. I was turned off by today's contractor who refused to do the job if I didn't install a vari-speed AH.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Welland, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    68
    As for which juice, I'd put R22 equipment today but wouldn't hesitate in putting whatever the customer wanted for their home and would try to talk them out of R410a if they wanted it. I do believe it is what we will have after 2010.
    Is this exactly what you mean BaldLoonie or is there a typo?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    628
    So easy to forget those n't, hate when I do that.

  11. #11
    My former Amana furnace 1984 was a 75000 btu unit (dealer said it was actually made by Ducane).

    Anyway, my XV80 variable speed furnace has a very quiet slow speed fan when in the low stage heating mode. However, once my XL14i heat pump was installed, it blows as forcefully as the former furnace did. It's all in the "dipswitch" settings or whatever.

    I agree with you that the Trane dealer should be more attuned to your comments.

    However, by suggesting a variable speed blower with an XL14i, this may be to your benefit. If the model numbers (furnace or airhandler, coil and outdoor unit) are 15 seer or (I forget what the heat pump requirement is), you could qualify for a 300 federal tax credit. Ask the Trane or AS dealer to show you the proposed combination of equip on the ARI (Air-Conditioning & Refrigeration Institute) website http://www.aridirectory.org

    The XL14i and the American Standard equivalent are available with R22 or R410. I was cheap, I chose R22. I may be sorry later if I get a leak or my compressor fails early.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,415
    Yea, meant to say WOULDN'T try to talk someone out of R410a if they wanted it.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,120
    Not worked with any 410 freon yet but all i know is what ive read and taught and told from books,here,and the teacher.The instructor at the college ,also runs his own heating and air and refrigeration biz,said he hates 410 because of the higher pressures,sais to many leakes on the equipment and the compressors cant handle those kinda pressures over time.Just what ive been told,as for me i will stay away from it till need be.
    There are three signs of old age.
    The first is your loss of memory,
    the other two I forget.


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