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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Portland OR
    Posts
    2,001
    I agree with WaterPirate, it sounds like in your situation you will save a ton of money and if there is one thing I can say about my geo customers is that they are the happiest of them all, I think 30K seems in line after excavation. You will have to replace your other units at some point and propane is not getting any cheaper, based on your calculations your also using todays propane rates, what if propane reaches $4 or $5 a gallon in 5 years even if electricity goes up a decent amount you already use so little of it it doesn't change your heating cost much.
    Don't forget about the additional comfort of geo, there are a lot of benefits of geo that don't add a savings like no outdoor unit noise, piping that has a 55 year warranty. Based on your numbers it seems like it really makes sense you just need that little push from us.
    Check out my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 We have customer testimonials, product reviews and more!
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  2. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paper Street Soap Company
    Posts
    2,304
    Has one tech affiliated with Geo- thermal given anyone advise that would suggest Geo might not be practical ?

    I guess in my neck of the woods it just doesnt add up.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Georgetown Delaware
    Posts
    197
    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    Has one tech affiliated with Geo- thermal given anyone advise that would suggest Geo might not be practical ?

    I guess in my neck of the woods it just doesnt add up.
    I did. Saturday morning while standing in a potential customers front yard on the 6th fairway. The proposed geo project was affordable, his current system had taken a dump. He was a prime candidate for a geo change out.

    To him the restoration that would be required post installation of the vertical loops was the deal breaker. I told him that drilling on his property was NOT in his best interest nor conducive to his attachmen to "lawn beautiful". In my opinion geo was not for him.

    Eric

  4. #30
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Jamaica
    Posts
    1

    nothing else

    I'm new here , nice thread!

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    19
    I have some quotes to share. First, I had the house modeled by an energy auditor (resnet/bpi certified) and he has it at 30,000 btu heat loss. HERS rating of 72. Tight house. I have quotes at $, $, $, and $. Some guys want to put in 4 ton , some want to do 3 ton. So yea, $ and that includes desuperheater with buffer tank. That puts me around $ after tax credits. And that $ quote is from the biggest, most experienced company in the area. They've installed 4000 since 1980. They had A+ BBB rating with no complaints and all 5 star reviews on the Bosch dealer rating page. The quote is for a Bosch 4 ton, TA 049 unit. Vertical loops, 600 foot bore, 1200 foot pipe. They do their own drilling, nothing is contracted out. I've since challenged him on it being 4 ton instead of 3. Here's what he said,

    "I just checked my heat loss is 43,000 btuh with an outside design of 0 degrees. Reason I design for 0 degrees is history. We have installed over 4500 geo's over 31 years and I can tell you that with the new 2 stage units you do not want to undersize them. It would take me a long time to give you the reasons but most of the problems that we see in the market place is undersized loops/ ductwork design / improper manifolding/ pump sizing / etc. If you want to drop back a ton ok but I would note this on the proposal or if you want to install a 3 ton unit with 3.5 ton of loop ( 535 feet of bore ) let me know."

    I'm not sure why he's using 0 degrees Winter design temp (I'm near Allentown, PA). Other guys were using 11 degrees which seems more reasonable. So I told him I like the idea of going with 3 ton unit and 3.5 ton of loop ( 535 feet of bore as he said above). I asked him what this would do to my costs.

    What design temp would you use for this area, for those who are familiar with this climate? Clearly a 3 ton unit is what I need and 4 ton is oversized, agreed?

    So obviously I'm trilled at the $ and it's a no brainer that I'm going to do geothermal. I am disappointed that he's @ 4 tons, 43,000 btu, but that may be correct using 0 degrees Winter design. Like many of you say, I'd rather size for %90 to %90 of heat loss and spend less upfront on equipment and use a little more aux heat. But at least he's willing to do three ton and isn't fighting me on it. Should be interesting to see what he comes back with as far as costs to do 3 ton, with 3.5 ton loop.

    Greg
    Last edited by beenthere; 06-08-2012 at 07:08 PM. Reason: Prices

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Portland OR
    Posts
    2,001
    You probably won't see much drop in cost, most geo units are VERY close when going from 3 to 4 to 5 ton, its the loop that changes it and since its only 70' less drilling it won't be much difference, i would say less than 1K.

    Part of the reason he may be suggesting a 4 ton is because he wants you to NEVER go into backup strip heat. That is a goal that many geo guys I know size for. It also puts the unit running in first stage more often and at least with the equipment I represent a 4 ton unit in 1st stage is about a 4.8 COP and in second stage it runs at a 4.1 COP, so many will argue that a slightly oversized two stage unit will be perfect for the home. Also with a geo unit a 049 does not mean 49K BTU's for your specific loop. We often see loop temperatures in the high 30 to low 40 degree range which means a WaterFurnace/Bosch 4 ton unit is only putting out 41K BTU of heat.

    I also don't know your area but in my area we put in 200' of vertical bore per ton so a 600' bore is a 3 ton loop(he also might be using larger diameter pipe but there are both negatives and positives to this) but im sure your contractor knows your area/soil better than me, or it could be that he is letting his loop temps get into the low 30 degree range where a 4 ton system is now only putting out 35K BTU's of heating capacity.

    Others here may disagree but I think I would go with the 4 ton as well especially for the price difference. The only thing you have to loose is a little bit of comfort if first stage is a bit oversized and second stage is a bit oversized but you are really between sizes depending on loop Entering Water Temperatures.
    Check out my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 We have customer testimonials, product reviews and more!
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  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,334
    Prices are not allowed in post. We don't allow pricing questions.
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  8. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    19
    Sorry mod, I've got to pay more attention to the rules on the different forums. Thanks Skyheating, maybe I will stick to 4 ton. I do like that it will run more in stage 1 and like you said, if the price difference isn't that much, why not.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts
    121
    Make sure a 4 ton unit isn't oversized for your cooling loads. If you wind up with too much cooling you may find your home feels like a cave.

    Bergy

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    806

    ASHP close here

    Quote Originally Posted by commtech77 View Post
    Has one tech affiliated with Geo- thermal given anyone advise that would suggest Geo might not be practical ?

    I guess in my neck of the woods it just doesnt add up.
    In my area of Texas with 2465 heating degree days and 3495 cooling degree days, a geo system costs marginally less to operate than a high efficiency dual fuel setup. At my personal home I have a dual fuel (propane) with A/S 15 SEER heatpump for the upstairs and a Climatemaster tranquility 27 split downstairs. The only thing I use propane for now is the stove, outdoor grill, upstairs furnace when it drops below 25 deg. and tankless hot water. Since I installed the geo and dual fuel setup last September, I have only used about 50 gallons of propane.

    My only geo customers are rural that are afraid of propane and want the absolute in efficiency and/or do not want a condenser outside spoiling the view.

    I love my geo system and it has saved me $$$ in propane with only a marginal increase in electricity usage this winter. The acid test will be this summer. We're already regularly hitting the mid 90's with lots of humidity due to recent rains.
    Avatar is a tribute to my Great Grandfather, Andrew Stewart. This pin was one of his advertisements for his heating and plumbing business. I never knew him but must of inherited his love of things mechanical since I am the only blue collar worker in the family

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Georgetown Delaware
    Posts
    197
    What type of exchanger are you useing? If closed loop, are you monitoring your EWT?
    Eric

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