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  1. #79
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanicallyInclined View Post
    I recently had talks with HS, which is non-Union in this area. I was told a top Tech is higher mid-$20s. This is far below the UA SJm here, it's $35/Hr. for all you that want to say it's not all about the money, you're only fooling yourselves.


    20 paid days off, $49,120/Yr., + $7,200 for Retirement, after Insurance & Retirement cost.

    or

    no paid time off, $67,200/Yr. + $13,248 for Retirement. No cost Health & Welfare or Retirement.


    There's no comparison! Some might complain about 5% Working Assessment and $30 Dues. So what, it's a small price to pay for more than a fair deal.

    Your numbers assume a 1,920 hours worked, which is essentially a full year (48 weeks at 40 hours each).

    Here are some real numbers for an average member in a given local:

    Average number of hours worked per member in 2006, same local: 1,202 (48 weeks at 25 hours each)

    Average number of hours worked per member in 2011, in that local: 830 (48 weeks at 17.3 hours each)

    Both are significantly less than your assumption, and may not qualify for a full pension credit or provide enough hours to cover quarterly health insurance requirements in that local.

    Using the actual total wage package dollars per hour (inluding benefits/fringe), this means that the average working member earned $64,835 in 2006 and that same member earned $54,589 in 2011.

    If the bennies are subtracted, this leaves $43,884 for 2006 W-2 wages and $34,598 for 2011 W-2 wages (average for both years).

    Fringe benefits were $20,951 in 2006 ($17.43 per hour x 1,202 hours) and $20,023 in 2011 ($24.11 per hour x 830 hours). Yes, the health and pension costs have gone up a bit. This is the part of union wages that employers see. The increase in per hour benefits helps to cover the reduction in hours worked, keeping the funds solvent. Some of these benefit amounts may be reported and taxed as income under "ObamaCare".

    In comparison, the average of reported Local Officer gross salary disbursement (W-2 wages) in 2006 was $106,382 and in 2011 it was $109,518. Officer bennies paid to the International have also increased dramatically.

    Officer wages and bennies are paid out of the dues and fees collected, substantially paid by rank and file members, but rank and file members cannot easily (if at all) reduce the number of union officers or bennies. Union dues are easily increased though.

    On the other hand, as the union wage package increases, employers may lose out on bids and the number of hours worked goes down. Employers may go out of business.

    Union dues and fees paid in 2005 by the average member: $958.00 (about 2.4% of W-2 wages)

    Union dues and fees paid in 2011 by the average member: $1585.00 (about 4.6% of W-2 wages)

    The average number of hours worked is determined by taking the total number of reported man hours and dividing it by the total number of reported members on 12/31/(year). While this may not be 100% accurate, the pattern closely mimics the total number of hours needed to qualify for a 1 year pension credit in this particular local.

    This information can be extracted from union LM2 forms and annual wage sheets.

    Just like a 401(k) plan, union retirement benefits are good only if the union or fund is solvent when it is time for you to collect. A basic search for union pension plan funding will tell you that rank and file member plans are typically underfunded or dangerously underfunded while union officer pension plans are fully funded. Hmmm.

  2. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by neophytes serendipity View Post
    Your numbers assume a 1,920 hours worked, which is essentially a full year (48 weeks at 40 hours each).

    Here are some real numbers for an average member in a given local:

    Average number of hours worked per member in 2006, same local: 1,202 (48 weeks at 25 hours each)

    Average number of hours worked per member in 2011, in that local: 830 (48 weeks at 17.3 hours each)

    Both are significantly less than your assumption, and may not qualify for a full pension credit or provide enough hours to cover quarterly health insurance requirements in that local.

    Using the actual total wage package dollars per hour (inluding benefits/fringe), this means that the average working member earned $64,835 in 2006 and that same member earned $54,589 in 2011.

    If the bennies are subtracted, this leaves $43,884 for 2006 W-2 wages and $34,598 for 2011 W-2 wages (average for both years).

    Fringe benefits were $20,951 in 2006 ($17.43 per hour x 1,202 hours) and $20,023 in 2011 ($24.11 per hour x 830 hours). Yes, the health and pension costs have gone up a bit. This is the part of union wages that employers see. The increase in per hour benefits helps to cover the reduction in hours worked, keeping the funds solvent. Some of these benefit amounts may be reported and taxed as income under "ObamaCare".

    In comparison, the average of reported Local Officer gross salary disbursement (W-2 wages) in 2006 was $106,382 and in 2011 it was $109,518. Officer bennies paid to the International have also increased dramatically.

    Officer wages and bennies are paid out of the dues and fees collected, substantially paid by rank and file members, but rank and file members cannot easily (if at all) reduce the number of union officers or bennies. Union dues are easily increased though.

    On the other hand, as the union wage package increases, employers may lose out on bids and the number of hours worked goes down. Employers may go out of business.

    Union dues and fees paid in 2005 by the average member: $958.00 (about 2.4% of W-2 wages)

    Union dues and fees paid in 2011 by the average member: $1585.00 (about 4.6% of W-2 wages)

    The average number of hours worked is determined by taking the total number of reported man hours and dividing it by the total number of reported members on 12/31/(year). While this may not be 100% accurate, the pattern closely mimics the total number of hours needed to qualify for a 1 year pension credit in this particular local.

    This information can be extracted from union LM2 forms and annual wage sheets.

    Just like a 401(k) plan, union retirement benefits are good only if the union or fund is solvent when it is time for you to collect. A basic search for union pension plan funding will tell you that rank and file member plans are typically underfunded or dangerously underfunded while union officer pension plans are fully funded. Hmmm.
    Not sure if you're in a Local or if you are if it's even a UA Local. Those first numbers reflect working non-Union for HS here in this market, considering 2,000 Hrs. with 160 Hrs. being paid time off. No overtime was factored.
    The other numbers reflect working Union for any National Sig or one of the 3 largest non-National Sigs, considering 1,980 Hrs. with no paid time off. No overtime or doubletime factored.
    There's absolutely no comparison.

  3. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    2,077
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanicallyInclined View Post
    Not sure if you're in a Local or if you are if it's even a UA Local. Those first numbers reflect working non-Union for HS here in this market, considering 2,000 Hrs. with 160 Hrs. being paid time off. No overtime was factored.
    The other numbers reflect working Union for any National Sig or one of the 3 largest non-National Sigs, considering 1,980 Hrs. with no paid time off. No overtime or doubletime factored.
    There's absolutely no comparison.
    I have asked him point blank a number of times to name what local he is a member with, he refuses to answer that question, so take what he says with a grain a salt.

    Also notice he is taking the average time worked, meaning he is factoring in the guys on the bench, out of town, etc... That is a very poor reflection of hours worked.

    Further more, if he is UA, he is taking into account the pipefitters which we all know don't get the hours and OT that the MES and service side do get.

    Now factor in a company truck, tools, lots of OT and DT, and a buck or two above scale if you are any good, then you have a decent representation of a union tech.

  4. #82
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Yes, I am in a Local, but not a UA local. Building trades and service.

    Like it or not, my numbers are in the ballpark in my area and in my local. No travelers.

    Average is just that. Some will make more, some will make less. Yup, there are active members making much less than the average and some making their 6 figures like nothing is happening.

    Yes, there are bound to be some (small) errors because the Local does not report the number of hours worked by classification, nor do they break out the number of members in each classification, at least not to plain old rank and file members.

    Very few are working anything close to 1,980 hours at Journeyman rate, at this time, in my neck of the woods.

    Guess I should have went UA

  5. #83
    No disrespect but Sheet Metal Workers, Electricians or Operating Engineers Unions have no business in HVACR. To the guy in OH, is HS out there? HS is the Commercial Refrigeration OEM's Service division.

  6. #84
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    No disrespect taken.

  7. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Buffalo NY
    Posts
    3,144
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanicallyInclined View Post
    No disrespect but Sheet Metal Workers, Electricians or Operating Engineers Unions have no business in HVACR. To the guy in OH, is HS out there. HS is the Commercial Refrigeration OEM's Service division.
    Hate to tell you but sheet metal workers started HVACR. Fitters are wanna be mechanics who have no clue about air flow. No disrespect.


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  8. #86
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty hvac View Post
    Fitters are wanna be mechanics who have no clue about air flow.
    That's been my experience so far.

    Of course, the piping is way too hard for mere mortals to figure out...



  9. #87
    UA HVACR Techs know all about air flow especially when working on Commercial Refrigeration. Tell me where's the ductwork in Com. Ref.? Auditing an air flow system in Air Conditioning is not an HVACR Tech, neither is installing the air flow system. Take it how you want. So how is work in SMW Union going?

  10. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Buffalo NY
    Posts
    3,144
    Quote Originally Posted by neophytes serendipity View Post

    Of course, the piping is way too hard for mere mortals to figure out...


    The only thing they do very well is weld pipe. You can have that work with all the fumes and brain damage. Oh wait I think I figured out their problem. Lol


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  11. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Buffalo NY
    Posts
    3,144
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanicallyInclined View Post
    UA HVACR Techs know all about air flow especially when working on Commercial Refrigeration. Tell me where's the ductwork in Com. Ref.? Auditing an air flow system in Air Conditioning is not an HVACR Tech, neither is installing the air flow system. Take it how you want. So how is work in SMW Union going?
    Don't know. Not in the Union.


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  12. #90
    Sounds like both of you joined the wrong Union. Doh!

  13. #91
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Buffalo NY
    Posts
    3,144
    Quote Originally Posted by MechanicallyInclined View Post
    Sounds like both of you joined the wrong Union. Doh!
    Nope got out to make more money then the union will pay. What's wrong with that?


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