so long and thanks for all the fish

[leapfrog]

Originally posted by ithinktherefore
I'll be sure to ask him for load calc at that point, but what do I do in the silence that follows?

Ask them what method they used to size the system. If they say they did one then ask them to share it with you so that you can see whether they missed something in the measurement of your home. If they say they didn't do one then ask them to do one now. If they say they can't, or won't, call an attorney.

[ithinktherefore]

OK.

I was gonna call trane factory rep first, though... after I give them a chance to fix it. All this sizing stuff is one issue. Another, and hopefully the only one that ends up mattering is the stat placement. It's possible that install was just fine, but stat irregularity is causing the issues, and it's ok when relocated and fan speed dropped and comfortR enabled so it's back to where it was on first install, but with stat working. I'm hoping that's the case, that's why I want to let them move stat before I do anything else... If they refuse to, then I was going to call Trane rep next. If they move it, and problems persist, but we can varify that reading is correct, and their supervisor confirms that setup is correct, then process of elimination says heat loss calc is probably not indicating this system. That would seem to me to be a reasonable time to get deeper into that discussion. I'm just hoping for right now that stat placement resolves the issue. The more I think about it, and the more I see temp reading irregularities rise and fall as differential with outside temp does, the more it's looking like stat placement is the biggest issue. Only fair, I think, to let them address that.

If you did install and system didn't work because stat was placed in same place as old, but stat couldn't get accurate enough read there to work properly, what would you do... what is a reasonable response from the company at this point? A legally permissable response? Your company's response?

[leapfrog]

Originally posted by ithinktherefore
If you did install and system didn't work because stat was placed in same place as old, but stat couldn't get accurate enough read there to work properly, what would you do... what is a reasonable response from the company at this point?

Something is wrong here.

Your old system maintained 74 degrees with the thermostat mounted in the same place as the current one, right? Was that 74 degrees a correct reading? How are you insuring that the new thermostat is calibrated properly? I read about the various measurements that you took but it wasn't clear what you used to measure the temperature (some kind of handheld thermometer - NOT infrared I hope?).

If the stat is mounted on an insulated wall, not in the corner and and not in line with a supply register and the wall opening behind it is sealed then I would say the mounting location is OK and your problem is somewhere else. Could be a miscalibrated thermostat, an undersized system, or a performance issue. If the job was bid originally with the idea that the existing thermostat location would be used then I would expect that a customer requested change in location would be an additional cost.

[ithinktherefore]

Stat placement was never discussed. Never thought it would or could be an issue.

All exterior walls in house are concrete, and have insulation as well. This wall, though, is between the interior and the garage. It appears to just be sheet rock. When the stat was off, I didn't see any insulation. I think the hole is bigger now, but not sure. As for old one... maybe it's thermometer was situated in such a way that it got it's reading from the front (room) side of the unit, and maybe this one is somehow more sensitive to the rear (hole in the wall) portion of the unit?

Dunno. All I can verify is that temp is off. This was verified with handheld digital thermometer in various locations. Stat was 5 degrees over temp in middle of room, and 4 degrees over temp as readon thermometer placed right on top of stat. This was in middle of day, though... not consistantly that much over or anything... it varies wildly... seems to be blending with outside temp.

If it is accepted that I should have to pay for relocation... I could easily do it myself, but I suppose this voids warranty, so I guess I'll have to pay them to do it. Without violating TOS or anything, generally speaking, is that sort of thing priced according to an hourly rate for the tech plus materials, or is it generally a line-item?

[Edited by ithinktherefore on 06-11-2006 at 05:27 PM]

[leapfrog]

It does sound like you've got a problem either with the thermostat's accuracy or with its placement. What make / model is it?

[ithinktherefore]

trane tcont803

[leapfrog]

That is a built-for-Trane version of the Honeywell Vision Pro TH8320U, a great thermostat. I don't think it is a thermostat calibration problem but it is important that any holes in the mounting surface be sealed. The installers didn't read the instructions apparently.

http://customer.honeywell.com/Honeyw...=69-1896EF.pdf
"Plug wall opening with non-flammable insulation."

[ithinktherefore]

I asked the last guy to cork it. He didn't, and cranked up the fanspeed and turned off comfortR instead.

When this guy told me after I'd waited all day for him to show up and move stat that the office told him NOT to move the stat, and that salesguy and supervisor would have to come over to explain how stat relocation isn't included...

... I asked him to just cork it since he was here anyway, and maybe that would do the trick. He said he couldn't because office told him not to touch it.

Can you tell me where specifically it tells tech to seal hole first? Is there a place I can look to get a copy of where it says that?

oops, sorry... missed the link. maybe that's it.,

[ithinktherefore]

Ahhh, yes... plug hole with non-flammable insulation...

Not sure whether they did that...




[Edited by ithinktherefore on 06-11-2006 at 06:19 PM]

[ithinktherefore]

...nope. Some wall insulation way back in there. None put into the hole. Pretty much what I expected.



[Edited by ithinktherefore on 06-11-2006 at 08:49 PM]

[RoBoTeq]

Wow! Still going strong, 10 pages after saying "so long". Not much of a hitchiker are you?

[ithinktherefore]

42

I just figured out why I couldn't use the hvac calc before. I was trying to go through the trial version to use, but the little popup window with all the instructions was getting shutout somehow... I was trying to go through it without receiving any of the instructions on how it works. It's working now, though.

It's not clear from form if actual version you buy is download or not... do you download the real version, or are they mailing it to you?

[ithinktherefore]

Well, this tech seems to have a much better idea what he's doing. The didn't send supervisor over like they said, but this guy has a lot of exp, and he's going through whole install step by step to diagnose. He checked all the wiring of stat, etc.

He's still working on it, but he says one other issue is that expansion valve appears to be stuck in open position. Does this sound like it makes sense given issues I've had?

[leapfrog]

Originally posted by ithinktherefore
... expansion valve appears to be stuck in open position.

The previous tech should have seen this reflected in the pressure and subcooling check. Unless of course he didn't have a clue about what he was doing.

Did you ever get in touch with the Trane field rep?

[Edited by leapfrog on 06-14-2006 at 02:54 PM]

[ithinktherefore]

That was next step. They hadn't gotten anyone over here who could address the incorrect stat reading yet. I figured I'd at least let them cork the hole behind stat or move stat before involving trane rep as it was looking likely that might be the main issue... and they had someone scheduled who hadn't come out yet.

Anyway, he's insulated the hole, and now says he's getting one degree above sling measurement in middle of same room. He's calling in order for expansion valve and says he should be able to tell me before he leaves how long it's going to take to get the valve and have someone back out to swap it out. Sez system should work in the meantime, but it's not getting as cold as it should. Sez current coil temp should be in the 40's, but it's measuring 55. Appologized for fact that the last guy didn't catch this.

He says this would explain why I couldn't get house cold enough when it was on 350 cfm setting, and why it's been cycling all the way through when low setting should have been sufficient.

Oh, and he re-enabled comfortR, and reset cfm/ton to 400. We talked about 350 vs. 400, and he said they have had issues with those at 350 setting with sweating at ducts, etc. I don't know if he's right or not, but at least he could give me a reason why he leaned toward the 400.

[Edited by ithinktherefore on 06-14-2006 at 03:09 PM]

[pstu]

This sounds like a very legitimate breakthrough for you, congratulations! With any good fortune this will make the install satisfactory and you can move on to the stucco forum somewhere.



Best of luck -- Pstu

[ithinktherefore]

Truth is, if this turns out to be right diagnosis... that it's info on this board and my involvement that found it. I had to show the company that the temp reading was not right at the box. 3 visits later, they finally did something about that.

Today, in conversation with tech, as I'm telling him about system running on stage2 all day without hitting setpoint unless fanspeed is cranked all up... and that old system used to be able to... and I've already verified ducts in great shape, insulated, etc... basically I eliminated enough variables that I figured the coil must not be getting cold enough, so I ask him what might cause that... he does a few measurements, and discovers faulty valve.

This tech was good. He didn't just try to pawn the problem off and fiddle with something like the last guy. He listened to me, and checked all the wiring, etc. Ultimately, because he listened to what I was saying and worked with me to find the cause, we (hopefully) got to the bottom of it. From description of expansion valve stuck in open position and what that would do... in combination with stat that reads toward the rear... right next to open hole in poorly insulated exterior wall... I'm betting all will be well as soon as they get the valve in and install it. This guy was great. I believe he would have found it regardless. Difference between a good tech and the chimp they sent out last time.

Oh, and already 2 steps ahead with stucco. 2 of 3 sides of house now finished with 2 coat process... waiting to cure. In the meantime, bahama shutters I ordered a couple months ago arrived. I was going to paint them to match house, but they look so good, I think I'll stain them instead. Every window on the North and West sides of house will have giant bahama shutter providing shade as soon as I can get staining done. Should help keep house kool, and lookin' mighty fine in the process.

[Edited by ithinktherefore on 06-15-2006 at 02:18 AM]

[tundraotto]

sounds like you have had an experience similar to mine. some guys do great work , only to have it undone by complete off the street losers. then it is up to the service tech to work backwards on everything....too bad for the service techs this seems a common problem. i would think it would be more cost efficient to have a "pro" to do all this stuff so there would not be any callbacks on saturday...etc

too many people take this stuff here personally. one guy asked me if i brought cold drinks to this dude (Stephen) who was fixing the f.ups. - yeah, i bought him lunch & cold drink. as far as those "startup techs" they will get a friggin' floggin' if i ever find out who they are...ba&^*&&*. the point is - dont be crying for a cold drink if you suck at your job. i really feel for the pros who must have to do this bull all day..it cannot be cost effective; i mean - check power, lineset, charge and thermostat etc.- you should be good to go...not with these guys....

[dash]

Originally posted by ithinktherefore
That was next step. They hadn't gotten anyone over here who could address the incorrect stat reading yet. I figured I'd at least let them cork the hole behind stat or move stat before involving trane rep as it was looking likely that might be the main issue... and they had someone scheduled who hadn't come out yet.

Anyway, he's insulated the hole, and now says he's getting one degree above sling measurement in middle of same room. He's calling in order for expansion valve and says he should be able to tell me before he leaves how long it's going to take to get the valve and have someone back out to swap it out. Sez system should work in the meantime, but it's not getting as cold as it should. Sez current coil temp should be in the 40's, but it's measuring 55. Appologized for fact that the last guy didn't catch this.

He says this would explain why I couldn't get house cold enough when it was on 350 cfm setting, and why it's been cycling all the way through when low setting should have been sufficient.

Oh, and he re-enabled comfortR, and reset cfm/ton to 400. We talked about 350 vs. 400, and he said they have had issues with those at 350 setting with sweating at ducts, etc. I don't know if he's right or not, but at least he could give me a reason why he leaned toward the 400.

[Edited by ithinktherefore on 06-14-2006 at 03:09 PM]

TXV likely damaged when the copper was brazed,too many guys don't remove the bulb or protect it from the heat in any way.


All sounds good except for the 400 cfms per ton.400 will be okay in the heat of the summer ,but to dehumidify,you'll likely need 350 when it's below 85° all day.Wait and see ,you need to test the RH,in milder weather.

[ithinktherefore]

I can always switch it later if need be. No big deal. I just left it alone while they got the other bugs worked out to remove all doubt that it was install problem vs. my fault for fiddling with it.

Does their comment about sweating at registers because air is too cool because it's not moving fast enough make sense?