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Thread: TCP/IP

  1. #40
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    I don't know of any, but then again this is the first time it has been asked and I have never looked before.

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

  2. #41
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    OK, I see. Anyway it should appear quite soon by looking on IT industry.

  3. #42
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    As was mentioned earlier in the thread, there is only certain occasions where BACNet/IP field devices are worth the added cost. And that is when they are a singular device connected to an existing network infrastructure. Other than that, IP is really only useful for the global controllers, and connecting the field controllers via MS/TP. There are even more IP based global's than there are field controllers because of this very reason. Use a building-wide, or campus-wide, IP network, with IP enabled controllers for major equipment (air handlers, central plants, etc), and the MS/TP branches to the field devices (VAV's, minor local IO, like refer monitoring, etc), gives the best cost-performance ratio.

  4. #43
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    Most of the companies above agree with your point: they have just one or two IP models, so IP-only BMS is not an option.
    Except for Delta: there is a whole range of IP-enabled devices; they are clearly pushing "IP everywhere" concept.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    As was mentioned earlier in the thread, there is only certain occasions where BACNet/IP field devices are worth the added cost. And that is when they are a singular device connected to an existing network infrastructure. Other than that, IP is really only useful for the global controllers, and connecting the field controllers via MS/TP. There are even more IP based global's than there are field controllers because of this very reason. Use a building-wide, or campus-wide, IP network, with IP enabled controllers for major equipment (air handlers, central plants, etc), and the MS/TP branches to the field devices (VAV's, minor local IO, like refer monitoring, etc), gives the best cost-performance ratio.
    Not True! At least with Delta and Reliable, IP comes on all system level controllers at this point (there is talk of a non-IP MACH-ProSys that is MSTP only) 90%+ of all system (air handlers and bigger) level equipment I have taken control of in the past couple of years has had a controller with IP built in. We started running 100% Ethernet (some cat5 some fiber) between system controllers, starting back in 2003(4) for the Clark County School District with Delta. Berfore I got there it was all MSTP and the update times were sloooooooooooooow. One high school had 60+ system level controllers on the MSTP network with Tridium on top. Each elementary had a central plant and 6 air handlers and the middle schools had a central plant and 17 air handlers all communicatrions between this erquipment was BACnetIP. The only devices that use MSTP would be fan coils, dx units and vav boxes, which were not in these designs. Now communications in each air handler (multi-zone units up to 17 zones) for zone control was MSTP off the first IP controller, this MSTP buss was confined to the AHU control cabinet were the other IP controller was located. And by the way a Tridium front end on all of these projects as well and the update time was great.
    And with Delta and others (Solydine , Comtemporary Controls) making IP level Application level controllers we should see IP on more unitary controls as well.

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

  6. #45
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    I have just installed some 50 odd Sedona controllers that are all IP based. We ran in a new standalone network and all necessary infrastructure to support it.

    Dazza

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post
    Not True! At least with Delta and Reliable, IP comes on all system level controllers at this point (there is talk of a non-IP MACH-ProSys that is MSTP only) 90%+ of all system (air handlers and bigger) level equipment I have taken control of in the past couple of years has had a controller with IP built in. We started running 100% Ethernet (some cat5 some fiber) between system controllers, starting back in 2003(4) for the Clark County School District with Delta. Berfore I got there it was all MSTP and the update times were sloooooooooooooow. One high school had 60+ system level controllers on the MSTP network with Tridium on top. Each elementary had a central plant and 6 air handlers and the middle schools had a central plant and 17 air handlers all communicatrions between this erquipment was BACnetIP. The only devices that use MSTP would be fan coils, dx units and vav boxes, which were not in these designs. Now communications in each air handler (multi-zone units up to 17 zones) for zone control was MSTP off the first IP controller, this MSTP buss was confined to the AHU control cabinet were the other IP controller was located. And by the way a Tridium front end on all of these projects as well and the update time was great.
    And with Delta and others (Solydine , Comtemporary Controls) making IP level Application level controllers we should see IP on more unitary controls as well.

    kontrol out
    Sorry, I think I misspoke - I was referring to using IP for field level devices, like VAV boxes and such, as being inefficient and expensive. For air handlers, and central plants, I do feel IP is fine - though in a lot of cases, those large IP based controllers on the air handler also serve as the MS/TP gateways for the VAV's below.

    Of course, there are some systems that ARE all IP - though in those cases, I think I'd rather run a wireless mesh network than bother with network switches and CAT5.

  8. #47
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    Crazy,

    You are absolutely correct in regards to field devices, the ratio of IP to MSTP is around 1 : 25 if not higher. Current project consists of 4 IP controllers and just over 100 MSTP controllers including 7 slaves. As you stated all of the VAV boxes under an airhandler are on a dedicated MSTP trunk to the AHU controller. The slaves are mixed in with the VAV box controllers. Makes everything clean in regards to addressing, programming, engineering and installing.

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

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