r22 vs. r410a

[mecabman]

I am planning on replacing my a/c and heat system in my house. I have gotten several quotes on replacing the system. Of the 5 quotes I have recieved, 1 sells Carrier and says to go with the new r410a (Puron). The others who are selling Trane, Bryant, Amana, and American Standard say they will install either but are really pushing for the r22. I have researched some and read posts on this site about the good and bad of both. I understand that sellsman are going to push what they sell or are trying to get rid of. I would like some honest information and opinions as to what more knowledgeable people think on the issue and from people who aren't just trying to sell me their product. All 5 have suggested going with a heat pump. Here is a little info on what I am dealing with.... 1700 sq. ft. house, live in Texas (90* - 100* + all summer), mild winters, replacing everything
Any information or opinions will be greatly appreciated

[edward301]

There have been many posts here on r22 vs 410a. Do a
search for them and read.

R22 and 410a are both good, I would recommend first
picking the contractor you feel most comfortable with
and will do the best installation (most important).

Then look at price, do not worry about r22 vs 410a,
you will get so many opinions, your head will spin.

The Heat Pump is a good idea, go with that.

[subzerocool]

Heat pumps are very good I have one myself, but if you do have natural gas or propayne then look into a gas furnace. The cost might be better or worse but atleast you have options. As far as R-22 vs 410a read this:

To avoid the risk that R-22 could become expensive or difficult to get when your system needs to be repaired in a few years.
The old refrigerant R-22 will be phased out along with other ozone depleting chemicals, and both supply and demand of this chemical will be significantly affected by current and upcoming regulations. By selecting an air conditioner or heat pump that uses R-410A, you will avoid the risk associated with purchasing a product that is destined to become obsolete.

R-410A systems can be more reliable than R-22 systems.
R-410A air conditioning and heat pump are today’s “state of the art” systems, and utilize the most current technology available for efficient and reliable operation. The heart of every air conditioner or heat pump is the compressor, and newer systems are specifically designed to use R-410A refrigerant. They often incorporate smaller, heavier-duty “scroll-type” compressors that are quieter and operate with less damaging vibration than older compressors that operate on R-22. Since R-410A can absorb and release heat more efficiently than R-22 ever could, compressors with R-410A run cooler than R-22 systems, reducing the risk of burnout due to overheating.

It uses a synthetic lubricant that helps to keep the system operating smoothly.
All air-conditioning systems use an oil that circulates through the inside of the system to keep all of the parts well lubricated, just like the engine of your car. R-22 air conditioners use an oil known as “mineral oil” that has been used for decades. R-410A air conditioners use newer synthetic lubricants that are usually more soluble with the R-410A than the old mineral oils are with the older R-22 refrigerants. This means the synthetic lubricants and R-410A can mix and circulate more efficiently to keep the compressor and other moving parts lubricated, reducing wear and extending their life. Also, just as many new cars use synthetic oils because they are less likely to break down under high stress and heat, the new synthetic oils used in R-410A air conditioners are less likely to break down under extreme conditions.

[tundraotto]

oh come on now with your dino vs. synthetic oil....you are saying that the new R22 compressors do not use synthetic oil whereas the R410A compressors do?...

[mjk_na]

Which refrigerant you go for (at least in near future). A properly sized, installed and maintained air conditioning system should give you the proper comfort, and the correct bill.

[airmax]

Originally posted by subzerocool

They often incorporate smaller, heavier-duty “scroll-type” compressors that are quieter and operate with less damaging vibration than older compressors that operate on R-22. Since R-410A can absorb and release heat more efficiently than R-22 ever could, compressors with R-410A run cooler than R-22 systems, reducing the risk of burnout due to overheating.

Do they really run cooler and reduce the risk of burnout due to overheating?
I thought it had to do with superheat on how cold one compressor runs.
Cheers

[smngmu]

I've been in this business for 20+ years. I performed the regular maintenance on my own home unit(r22) until January. The compressor failed but AFTER 19 years I would expect something to go. I went overto a split system with natural gas ( my former unit was a package heat pump ) running 410 and I did notice a great energy savings going to heat. As far as summer,we'll see.I just hope and pray that this unit will last 19 or more years.R22 is being phased out so I took the opertunity to do it now instead of later.The cost was a little higher to go with 410 but with the old being done away with it's only going to go up in price to service it.

[lastguy]

after 2010 you can still use it for existing units, just mfg shall not mfg unit using R22. After 5-10 years R22 price may go high.
All new materials for environment sake are not as good as old one. Vacuum tube, treated lumber, and freon.
Syn oil is said to be better than mineral one, the mfg cost is less and the price is higher. Most of time when new things come out (except for electronics) it means a few mfg can earn more so they block others try to use sound reasons, and they will only use them when there are competitors, or you never see new tech in US when no competitor.
I'll go R411 if my unit is high cost one, or R22 if low cost.

[craig1]

oh come on now with your dino vs. synthetic oil....you are saying that the new R22 compressors do not use synthetic oil whereas the R410A compressors do?...

correct. r-22 can use either oil. r-410a must use synthetic. Mineral oil is much more forgiving to contamination and improper installation than the synthetic oil

[beenthere]

R-410A systems can be more reliable than R-22 systems.

If they are installed properly, and the R22 unit isn't.

R-410A air conditioning and heat pump are today’s “state of the art” systems, and utilize the most current technology available for efficient and reliable operation. The heart of every air conditioner or heat pump is the compressor, and newer systems are specifically designed to use R-410A refrigerant. They often incorporate smaller, heavier-duty “scroll-type” compressors that are quieter and operate with less damaging vibration than older compressors that operate on R-22.

They been using Scroll compressors for R22 systems for years. The main difference between an R410A compressor and an R22 compressor, is the shell is made thicker, So it doesn't blow apart.

Since R-410A can absorb and release heat more efficiently than R-22 ever could, compressors with R-410A run cooler than R-22 systems, reducing the risk of burnout due to overheating.

As long as the condensr isn't on a roof that reaches 135°, then it loses capacity

It uses a synthetic lubricant that helps to keep the system operating smoothly.
All air-conditioning systems use an oil that circulates through the inside of the system to keep all of the parts well lubricated, just like the engine of your car. R-22 air conditioners use an oil known as “mineral oil” that has been used for decades.

R-410A air conditioners use newer synthetic lubricants that are usually more soluble with the R-410A than the old mineral oils are with the older R-22 refrigerants.

Doesn't mix better then mineral does with R22.
Suction line velocities are kept higher on R410A systems inorder to keep good oil return.


This means the synthetic lubricants and R-410A can mix and circulate more efficiently to keep the compressor and other moving parts lubricated, reducing wear and extending their life. Also, just as many new cars use synthetic oils because they are less likely to break down under high stress and heat, the new synthetic oils used in R-410A air conditioners are less likely to break down under extreme conditions.

No real advantage to use R410A over R22.

[dilla]

Compressor runs half as much to superheat the vapor... All for it.

[DGIO-Not]

How did this thread get drudged up from the dank and dark basement? Just saying that maybe after 4y, if point wanting to be made, maybe a new thread started?

[dilla]

Fantastic. Great idea.

[beenthere]

How did this thread get drudged up from the dank and dark basement? Just saying that maybe after 4y, if point wanting to be made, maybe a new thread started?

LOL.. Cause last guy revived it.

Maybe he was bored.

[DGIO-Not]

Now if want to discuss the pending R410A phase out, that is a soap box I would be very interested to watch. :-P

[beenthere]

Now if want to discuss the pending R410A phase out, that is a soap box I would be very interested to watch. :-P

Its not a phase out.

Its a phase down.

[DGIO-Not]

Yes, but I'm talking about 10y down the road. We are in an industry that beforehand at least had a solution that existed before the legislation. As much as our industry has changed, it has remained the same. Better start debating it now rather than later.

[beenthere]

Its one of the things I find funny about R410A.
Everyone is saying switch to it because r22 won't be around forever.
But, they never seem to mention, that R410A, is looking like it won't be either.

[nichoveski]

Have worked with refrigerant systems for 60 years, yes I'm 79. Taught (college) A/C for 15 years.
In my opinion, changing over to 410A is a fiasco and shaft to the public. Understand the phase out of R-22. It should be a long, long process.
They have to come up with something that is a drop in. With 410A/R22, as usual oil is a problem, as is the pressure differences, and the volume of air over the coils.
As to R-22 systems, long as you can obtain a compressor for domestic units. The system can usually be repaired. If you have a leak in the evap or condenser, it is usually caused by an erosion and chafing of some type of retainer. ---repair it.
If you have a metering device problem, TXV valve replace it, the cap tubes can be cleared with a vacuum pump and propane torch. Tubing leaks repair them. These will take care of 95% of all problems. Everything else is disconnected to the refrigerant side. Fan motors, capacitors, relays etc. Keep them as long as you can.
On my R-22 units, have hard start kits on them. Clean the condensers and change the filters regularly. With the unit breaker turned OFF, I spin the fan blade with a screwdriver every couple of weeks. If the blade turns slowly, this is an indicator if the bearings are going out, I replace my fan motor.
Look at the name plate for minimum size electrical breakers. On my HVAC condensing units, have 15 amp breakers on my 1.5 ton units, 20 Amp on
2.5 ton. and 30 Amp on my 4.5 ton. If there is a problem YOU want the breaker to trip. These are just my thoughts and opinions.

nick

[DGIO-Not]

Have worked with refrigerant systems for 60 years, yes I'm 79. Taught (college) A/C for 15 years.
In my opinion, changing over to 410A is a fiasco and shaft to the public. Understand the phase out of R-22. It should be a long, long process.
They have to come up with something that is a drop in. With 410A/R22, as usual oil is a problem, as is the pressure differences, and the volume of air over the coils.
As to R-22 systems, long as you can obtain a compressor for domestic units. The system can usually be repaired. If you have a leak in the evap or condenser, it is usually caused by an erosion and chafing of some type of retainer. ---repair it.
If you have a metering device problem, TXV valve replace it, the cap tubes can be cleared with a vacuum pump and propane torch. Tubing leaks repair them. These will take care of 95% of all problems. Everything else is disconnected to the refrigerant side. Fan motors, capacitors, relays etc. Keep them as long as you can.
On my R-22 units, have hard start kits on them. Clean the condensers and change the filters regularly. With the unit breaker turned OFF, I spin the fan blade with a screwdriver every couple of weeks. If the blade turns slowly, this is an indicator if the bearings are going out, I replace my fan motor.
Look at the name plate for minimum size electrical breakers. On my HVAC condensing units, have 15 amp breakers on my 1.5 ton units, 20 Amp on
2.5 ton. and 30 Amp on my 4.5 ton. If there is a problem YOU want the breaker to trip. These are just my thoughts and opinions.

nick

As I witness units older than I, but maintained, I could not agree more. Unfortunately...we deal with alot who do not understand that grime breaks things. As proud as I am about my employees and company, 90% of our job is extreme "janitorial" due to neglect. And believe me, I appreciate when they tell me that cleaning will actually break things more (the grime is what is holding it together.) Change over is not the issue--repairs are still allowed, even components of a system. The issue I have is roof hatches or condo closets, etc... that really do have to be condemned in the first place. Only a 2 manufacturer's catering to these customers have sought an exception to this rule. Manufacturing IMHO is very reactive and not proactive. With the tightening up of homes, I see instances where a split system is grossly oversized with available market offerings.