I need help with an electric steam table -

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Anybody here do kitchen equipment service ?

A guy over at the country club asked me today about an electric steam table. Apparently the refrigeration works so well now that they assume I can fix anything.

They have had the steam "fixed" repeatedly and the heating elements keep burning out.

Which sounds like they are leaving it on all night and running it out of water to me.

Of course they deny that.

Are there burn-out proof / run-dry elements available for these things? How about a float switch? These can't be the only people in the world having these problems.

Anybody here work on this stuff?

[coolwhip]

Theres gotta be some sort of emersion probe that can be used to break a circuit in case of no water.

Never worked on one though.

[smurphy]

Responding from your last post in the reefer section. The high limit is normally mounted right next to the element. Do you have the model and serial #'s?

[Poodle Head Mikey]

PHM
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Responding from your last post in the reefer section. The high limit is normally mounted right next to the element. Do you have the model and serial #'s?

[icemeister]

Here's a past thread which may help:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=739371

[SandShark]

I've worked mostly on APW Wyott hot food wells. The ones with drains should not be run dry. The ones without drains can be run wet or dry. I'm not 100% sure, but I do not believe either one has a high limit control.

[ECtofix]

Typically there's two types of controls:

1. A thermostat. That's it...a KX thermostat.
2. An infinite switch AND a limit thermostat. The limit tstat is a little bi-metal dohicky (sp) connected directly to an element. An infinite control needs that since it doesn't sense.

Is it possibly and infinite control setup LACKING that limit tstat?

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I could not find a maker's name anywhere on it.

Each heated pan is over a water bath. Each of the first water baths has a drain.

Under each water bath pan is what appears to be a cover/plate containing a heating element. The power is apparently controlled by a dial thermostat with a red power light on it. The sensing tube of the temperature control also leads into the heating pan/plate.

It just has a tiny space to slide into under the heating element pans. How the hell are you supposed to work on it? I can barely get one arm in there with me - two arms is impossible.

[SandShark]

It just has a tiny space to slide into under the heating element pans. How the hell are you supposed to work on it? I can barely get one arm in there with me - two arms is impossible.

Yeah, depending on how the wells are installed, it can be a real PITA to access the elements and controls. Some, I've had to literally lay on my back and slide under the wells to work on them. Some, you can access the heating elements and controls from the front. It depends.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Nothing on the front but the dials for the stats.

There were apparently SS plates enclosing the under side of the heating pans and elements and wiring, but only one is presently installed.

There doesn't seem to be any safety controls and adding them seems impossible. Do they count on the stat to turn off the heating element in the event of no water?

PHM
-----

Yeah, depending on how the wells are installed, it can be a real PITA to access the elements and controls. Some, I've had to literally lay on my back and slide under the wells to work on them. Some, you can access the heating elements and controls from the front. It depends.

[SandShark]

Yeah, apparently so. Like I said, the ones I've worked on didn't have limits, which seems like a design flaw if you ask me. All I know is our kitchen staff has been really good about not running them dry and they always turn them off before draining the water and cleaning them. The only recurring issue I have had is the wire connector being damaged from overheating where it connects to the end of the heating element.

[ECtofix]

Steam wells and steam tables definitely are a PITA. Most are drop-ins where a hole was cut in a counter (stainless or wood). Usually the bottom is accessible enough to repair. I've seen an occasional unit, usually multiple wells, where the only way replace the element was to pull the entire unit up out of the counter.

I once had a self-contained roll-around I literally had to take out the the parking lot and flip over to remove the bottom of the entire cabinet to get to everything.

Only the fancier units that automatically fill have any water sensors/control.

If that well uses a thermostat to control, that's all there is. No safeties.

If you ever figure out a way to get to this thing, have with you plenty of:

1. High temp wire
2. High temp wire terminals
3. Ceramic wire nuts
4. Glass electrical tape

The last two items usually aren'tneeded since you want to minimize the number of wire connections. The most common problem with steam wells and tables are electrical connections that overheated and burned off. ANY connections need to be clean (or new) and TIGHT.

You asked what could cause the elements to keep blowing. Check their incoming voltage and compare it to what's stamped in the element. It may have 208 vac elements in a 240 vac circuit. I've serviced a place that had their 120 vac unit plugged into 208!

Ya never know!

[ECtofix]

(don't know what happened to the EDIT feature)

Of course, you may want to check the thermostat calibration. It may not be cycling.

[bogart219]

The most problems I've had with these pans were where the ring terminal attached (screwed) to the element, burning off. Always tried to replace with hi temp ring connectors.

[striper68]

I have worked on many steam tables and found that the T-stat not opening is the cause of wire terminals burning off or elements burning up. Most units do not have any safeties, so they will stay in the heat cycle till the weakest link fails. I would check to see if t-stat is cycling properly. Also they are usually insulated underneath and if thats gone, you may not be sensing the proper temps at your t-stat bulb due to air infiltration.

[SandShark]

I have worked on many steam tables and found that the T-stat not opening is the cause of wire terminals burning off or elements burning up. Most units do not have any safeties, so they will stay in the heat cycle till the weakest link fails. I would check to see if t-stat is cycling properly. Also they are usually insulated underneath and if thats gone, you may not be sensing the proper temps at your t-stat bulb due to air infiltration.

Excellent points.

[ZeroTolerance]

I do a lot of Kitchen equipment service. I typically see problems where the element is under rated for the line voltage supplying it. All these elements are rated for different wattages. I bet they have the incorrect element for the application, causing it to continually burn out. I have also ran into the same problems striper has run into.

On these Pan heaters there are no safeties, as he stated. So, it continues to heat until it burns a wire off of the terminal. Usually the closest one to the heating element is the victim.

Also, make sure the sensing bulb is in the correct location. THIS IS CRUCIAL!

[crymtide]

It sounds like they could be Wells units and they are accessible from the bottom and the high limit is a bi-metal switch attached to one end of the element. The bi-metal switch does fail and causes the wire to burn off at the terminal. There are many configurations and many incoming voltage ratings controlled in many different ways, and only by following the path can you discern the difference. The old adage "never assume" is the axiom to be followed here. There are infinite switch controls and temp probe controls and others and when you follow the path of electrical current and Amp draw you will find the break.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I have been in schedule-conflict with the new kitchen-boss woman (who is really stunning - even with no makeup and in kitchen whites. Blond, slim/athletic, late 20's) but yesterday I finally got back tuit.

The elements are in a galvanized 'pan' under the fixed-in-place water pans. Four nuts on studs hold them up in place. Inside the galvanized pans are three sheet-metal element-supports holding up a 7" by 14" rectangle of cal-rod heater - like a defrost heater.

The sensing bulb from the stat is held in the center of the galvanized pan - up on a bracket.

There is some light fuzzy fragile insulation laying in the bottom of the pans although some had grooves melted into it from be in contact with the elements. Oh: and one pan had the insulation OVER the element.

One element was still heating.

Two had a terminal end burned off at the element screw. I replaced those, cleaned the element's mounting tabs, and assembled the connections with Never Seize in the crimps and also on the actual screw connections.

Two of them had electrically-open elements. The working elements draw 4.8 amps at 203 volts. So I guess they are 10,000 watt elements.

Where can I source these elements?

Although maybe I can just get close with a straight universal-fit defrost heater and then bend it into the correct shape. What do you all do?

There are no names or tags anywhere on this entire unit.

[SandShark]

Is this it?

http://www.partstown.com/atlas_metal/at1058