We'll be working for our health....

[enb54]

I have bargained with the doctors on lab work by not letting them put things to look for unless they are absolutely pertinent to what my issue is. You'd be surprised how much less lab work is when the doctor is only looking for specific items and not a whole laundry list of general data.

Both CVS and Walgreen's have programs for self pay prescription buyers. Walmart has a program where every prescription is something like $20 for self pay persons.

As long as free enterprise is alive, we can all make deals. Free enterprise has been rapidly going down the toilet over the past few years.

I wish you well, and hope that life for you will be good, that's all we can (any one of us) hope for...

[pageyjim]

I don't know what doctors you go to but every doctor, hospital, lab & even pharmacy I go to bill out at a higher rate if there's no insurance co. involved.
Most bills are about double if you pay cash instead of running them through an insurance co. I've seen lab bills as much as seven to ten times what they would charge if they were run through an insurance co. Its not just insurance co.s raping the public, most of the doctors, hospitals & everyone else in the medical business do the same thing. The whole industry is corrupt.

It has also been my experience that every dr, hospital and pharmacy charges more for straight cash payments. Although after checking this a little deeper it appears that you have a decent chance to lower the price some if you bargain in advance. It seems practical with a physician but not so much for a hospital unless you are going in for a planned procedure. Drug stores are coming up more and more with their own programs for cash customers but not so much bargaining.

[pageyjim]

A lot of testing is done not to cover the doctor but to generate revenue for the company he works for. Can't get any more for the procedure however they do authorize tests x, y and z. The mega corporate medical facility gets more money as they also own the medical testing companies they refer to. Doctors do practice defensive medicine, hospitals who hire doctors have their own revenue enhancing processes and requirements.

More and doctors are corporate doctors and are not in private practice. And I would be surprised if their "performance" ratings did not reflect this.

[pageyjim]

I went to see an Ear, Nose, and Throat specialist today....We got into a conversation about Obamacare.

He looked at me and said: "You know who's going to get hurt the most?...YOU...people like you who have chosen a level of insurance to purchase, who will now be forced into a Lowest Common Denominator system".....

He continued to say: "I will be affected somewhat, but not drastically....60% of my traffic now is Medicare and Medicaid.....If I didn't have to deal with government paperwork, I could have three girls in the office instead of eight......and, of course, wait times will be drastically longer for an appointment, due to backlog".....

"But what does he know....he's just a doctor."

There is no provision forcing anybody down to the lowest common denominator with Obamacare.

LOL the dr says that 60% of his business is Medicare and Medicaid and he complains that he has to have a staff to accomidate that. What a joke! The majority of Medicare and Medicaid patients would be uninsurable by private means then where would his practice be? He probably complains about Medicare fraud also. Which we all should be concerned about but this is all a means to keep that down.

But what does he know....he's just a doctor.

Not so much it seems. It is easy for otherwise intelligent people to be blinded by their own biases.

[pageyjim]

I do not have firsthand knowledge of voter fraud, only what I hear in the news. As for the other loopholes, I get my information directly from the perpetrators.

Drivers Licenses: We (Los Angeles) just changed the law that impounded the cars of drivers caught without driver’s licenses. Now they are able to drive away.

I know police do not ask for proof of insurance from many Hispanic drivers when they are pulled over. Maybe they think it is fruitless or they feel compassion for them. It seems they want to write tickets to those who will pay them.

I know and work along side many Hispanics that take full advantage of these loopholes. You won’t hear about them on the news but they can get fake licenses, fake auto insurance papers to obtain DMV tags, they are cut slack by the local police and the only tax they pay is a little sales tax and an even smaller amount of property tax due to prop 13. The revenue that is lost in those lower income areas is staggering, and the police go along with it.

I work in areas where the medium income ranges from $20K to $500K a year. The police in these areas enforce very different laws but they and the local news would be the last to admit it.

Voter fraud is just a ruse as my previous post said and provided a link.

Being able to drive away does not mean they get away scott free. I use to live in San Diego and know much of what you speak of. Studies do show that illegals do actually pay in as much and even more than they receive.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi..._United_States
Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States

The economic impact of illegal immigration to the United States is a matter of study and debate relating to the nation's economy and politics. Undocumented immigrants contribute both benefits and costs to the U.S. economy. At the most basic level, undocumented immigrants purchase goods and services and contribute labor and tax dollars while requiring services such as healthcare, education and law enforcement. The participation of undocumented immigrants in the U.S. economy also has more complex systemic impacts. For example, their participation can depress both wages for lower-skilled native U.S. workers and prices for all consumers buying U.S. goods and services. The evidence suggests that the overall costs imposed on the U.S. economy by undocumented immigrants are equivalent to or outweighed by the benefits. However, this issue remains contentious in part because the costs of illegal immigration are not often borne by the people and institutions benefiting from illegal immigration.

[pageyjim]

Is the problem, not healthcare! but what seems to be from an outside "the endemic attack of corruption"
As with healthcare you should look at preventative care first, so if you remove corruption (left and right) then maybe your present system, may work for the very large majority.

Obamacare deals with preventative care and I totally agree that it is key to do so. People that bring up emergency room care as a viable alternative do not seem to understand this.

[garyed]

I have bargained with the doctors on lab work by not letting them put things to look for unless they are absolutely pertinent to what my issue is. You'd be surprised how much less lab work is when the doctor is only looking for specific items and not a whole laundry list of general data..........

I have a friend of mine who is a doctor & had his own practice a few years back. He told me the lab costs that they pay for tests are unbelievably low compared to what the patient pays. I didn't get any numbers from him but I have seen a Labcorp bill for blood work at $750.00 discounted down to $125.00 to an insurance co. so I'm guessing $100.00 in lab work probably costs the doctor around $25.00. They have a lot of incentive to order tests if they bill you for them. Even if you get billed directly from the Lab co. it wouldn't surprise me if the doctors get some kind of kick back. The pharmaceutical companies also give doctors all kinds of perks to get them to prescribe their drugs too. We have some crooks in our business but we're small potatoes. We can't even compare to the corruption in the health care industry & the devastation they can bestow upon us.

[Brian GC]

Voter fraud is just a ruse as my previous post said and provided a link.

Being able to drive away does not mean they get away scott free. I use to live in San Diego and know much of what you speak of. Studies do show that illegals do actually pay in as much and even more than they receive.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi..._United_States
Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States

The economic impact of illegal immigration to the United States is a matter of study and debate relating to the nation's economy and politics. Undocumented immigrants contribute both benefits and costs to the U.S. economy. At the most basic level, undocumented immigrants purchase goods and services and contribute labor and tax dollars while requiring services such as healthcare, education and law enforcement. The participation of undocumented immigrants in the U.S. economy also has more complex systemic impacts. For example, their participation can depress both wages for lower-skilled native U.S. workers and prices for all consumers buying U.S. goods and services. The evidence suggests that the overall costs imposed on the U.S. economy by undocumented immigrants are equivalent to or outweighed by the benefits. However, this issue remains contentious in part because the costs of illegal immigration are not often borne by the people and institutions benefiting from illegal immigration.

I’ve been right with you on your views on healthcare but with this I’m parting ways with you.

If the illegal alien can only pay sales tax, partial property tax and gas tax and still be positive in regards to his impact on our economy then we ALL should be able to do the same without hurting our economy. But we both know that cannot be, don’t we?

A study like that can be skewed in many ways. For example: When a Hispanic will cut your lawn for $50/mo and a licensed co. will charge $125/mo they might say that just freed up $75/mo for other expenditures. But that might also cause you to cut your own lawn too. My sister recently moved to Boise, Id. They do not have the barrage of Hispanics for lawn care and Vietnamese for nail salons like we do here. They do fine without those discounted services and I doubt it hurts them.

If we can pay all these taxes and still be in the red, imagine what not paying them will do? I’d like to see their (Kool-Aid) math.

[pageyjim]

I’ve been right with you on your views on healthcare but with this I’m parting ways with you.

If the illegal alien can only pay sales tax, partial property tax and gas tax and still be positive in regards to his impact on our economy then we ALL should be able to do the same without hurting our economy. But we both know that cannot be, don’t we?

A study like that can be skewed in many ways. For example: When a Hispanic will cut your lawn for $50/mo and a licensed co. will charge $125/mo they might say that just freed up $75/mo for other expenditures. But that might also cause you to cut your own lawn too. My sister recently moved to Boise, Id. They do not have the barrage of Hispanics for lawn care and Vietnamese for nail salons like we do here. They do fine without those discounted services and I doubt it hurts them.

If we can pay all these taxes and still be in the red, imagine what not paying them will do? I’d like to see their (Kool-Aid) math.

I gave one link that came to the conclusion that it was a wash. I have seen about a dozen with basically the same results. Most say it is a wash some say it has a small negative effect and some say it has a small positive effect. None took into account the effect on Social Security which we come out on top by about 9 billion a year.
There are winners and losers. Hospitals and local govt on the short end usually but state and federal govt on the up side.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024.../#.T38UspkV22U

They do have a small effect on keeping wages down in some sectors according to studies.

My personal opinion was that they had a small negative effect overall with winners and losers. I am just passing on what the studies concluded.

[Brian GC]

I gave one link that came to the conclusion that it was a wash. I have seen about a dozen with basically the same results. Most say it is a wash some say it has a small negative effect and some say it has a small positive effect. None took into account the effect on Social Security which we come out on top by about 9 billion a year.
There are winners and losers. Hospitals and local govt on the short end usually but state and federal govt on the up side.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024.../#.T38UspkV22U

They do have a small effect on keeping wages down in some sectors according to studies.

My personal opinion was that they had a small negative effect overall with winners and losers. I am just passing on what the studies concluded.

Just like in a trial, it depends who is bringing the facts forward. A study can only be complete after it is rebutted by those with opposing views.

It is like this thread. You, Garyed and several others have done a very good job of presenting the pro-healthcare position. Especially the Canadians here have done very well in debunking our Canadian myths. But when facts are presented they are countered with entrenched, biased retorts. ‘Learning’ to them only operates in one direction.

The effect of illegal aliens on our economy must be discussed without prejudice, something that is not happening in this thread.

Even with what the illegal alien has done to the construction industry, I’m open to a new opinion of them if it is based in a complete set of facts.

[enb54]

The effect of illegal aliens on our economy must be discussed without prejudice, something that is not happening in this thread.

Even with what the illegal alien has done to the construction industry, I’m open to a new opinion of them if it is based in a complete set of facts.

Illegal aliens have some effect on the economy, but the negative effects we hear about are mostly blown out of proportion I think. Who will do the gardening, housekeeping, vegetable harvesting, etc. if they don't? We native born folks just plain don't want those jobs, and someone has got to do them. I have difficulties with how those folks are exploited by their employers, plus are terrified to go for help when they are.

It is not as big a problem here as in the USA, but it is a problem. Here we have mostly documented migrant workers, who are entitled to health care, undocumented illegals are not.

I don't understand how employers can hire people who are illegal, unless it's for cash every day, and how do the books work at tax time? Maybe we are stupid here, but I can only use cash for a very small part of my business expenses, otherwise the "Revenooors" will rake me over the coals...

Just commenting...

[pageyjim]

I don't understand how employers can hire people who are illegal, unless it's for cash every day, and how do the books work at tax time? Maybe we are stupid here, but I can only use cash for a very small part of my business expenses, otherwise the "Revenooors" will rake me over the coals...

Just commenting...

How it would work is like this. A person has to show a Social Security card but it doesn't have to be checked or be real. So these taxes get paid but will not be collected by the person since they are illegal.

Totals from 2007 are almost 14 billion from Social Security and Medicare payroll deductions.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...igtaxes29.html

Here is an interesting link, enjoy.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/2011-taxre...campaign=taxes

[RoBoTeq]

I wish you well, and hope that life for you will be good, that's all we can (any one of us) hope for...

The more we can get government out of our social lives, the better we will be. That is how it must be in the United States. I cannot state as such for other coutries, but it seems that Canada and the U.K. have some issues with too much government control as well.

A pretty neat coincidence on this subject came in the mail this past week. I have a prescription discount card that claims savings on an average of 25% for drugs that are not covered by insurance. Both CVC and Walgreen are listed as two of the many pharmacy's that are participating in this. There website is www.selectrxcard.com/ins

Everyone in the U.S. realizes how bad our situation is. Obamacare can only make it a lot worse.