We've had enough!!

[Cooked]

I checked what's an engineer just to be funny but my real answer is a resounding YES. But it'll never happen. For the record, I paid my dues. Worked for many many years as a service tech, went to an ABET accredited university and became an engineer, worked for Carrier as a product/design engineer and finally onto consulting and semi retirement.

I feel your pain and frustration, I've walked the walk.

[koolkahuna]

Engineers are like the news, you remember the bad stories better than the good.
There are some really good ones out there. I know because I met both of them!
Seriously, you don't hear about the good ones until they make a mistake.
The best PEng I know puts on a pair of coveralls and checks every job before, during, and after every job.

That guy earned my respect.

[jburchstead]

Yes
What's an engineer?

LOL

An engineer is someone who does not have the personality to become a building inspector.

[billygoat22]

I've only met one good one- actually met on job, knew the term "KISS" and the concept of a budget and keep it there. Some serious twists and turns in the duct drawing, but it fit perfect, considering was being threaded through a couple of holes in a concrete vault.

Otherwise, they need to do their internship with a tee-square, triangle and slide rule/simple calculator and DO THEIR OWN THINKING, not have a computer crank out numbers. See it going together in their head as a building w/ multiple systems integrated into the space- not a series of individual exercises in a college class.

[Cooked]

An engineer is someone who does not have the personality to become a building inspector.

I would hope you're kidding. An engineer is someone who sat through and passed advanced termo, differential equations, and multi-variable calculus to name a few and worked 8 complete years under the direction of a registered P.E. just to have the privilege of sitting before the state board of examiners and passing the test.

Just to clarify.......

[Gib's Son]

I'm not reading all the post's because I have a strong opinion, and rare insight.

My history: I was a service tech, tweaked my back and was deemed UN-insurable after a year of rehab was eventually and let go. I enrolled in college to get an ME so I could become a PE. I got a job designing HVAC and worked with Architects: I wanted to make a difference for the guy's in the field. I am now back in the field as a business owner doing service, but primarily commissioning work.

In other words, I have worked this trade from a tin knocker, a service tech, a designer, an engineer, a contractor and and a commissioning agent.

I assure you, the #1 problem is the Architect. They are the amongst the most arrogant people on earth and feel the need to make their imprint on every single building; and it continues to get worst with the younger crowd.

Don't always blame the engineer, because I have been forced into making all sorts of crappy design decisions because the Arch. wont budge.

All that being said, yes, all Architects and Engineers should spend some time in the field. I run across to many of them that are totally ignorant and don't care that the owner of building has to live with their stupid edicts for the life of the building.

[jburchstead]

I would hope you're kidding. An engineer is someone who sat through and passed advanced termo, differential equations, and multi-variable calculus to name a few and worked 8 complete years under the direction of a registered P.E. just to have the privilege of sitting before the state board of examiners and passing the test.

Just to clarify.......

I was, I borrowed that quote from a P.E. that was an ASHREA fellow in fact.

[dlove]

i have dealt with so many Architects and engineers over the years and yes some are morons. But HVAC contractors can be too. I have seen contractors install something they knew was wrong but said "well that's the way they wanted it" da huh" the owner is left with a big mess. I have told a few engineers. I'm not doing that because its wrong. and if they insist i will get something in writing. and if its really messed up i walk away. I had a few freinds wait months and sometimes not get paid at all and have to sue, beacuse of red tape and in the end he would say i wish i walked away. anyway. When i can, i will have the HVAC contractor and the engineer and Architect look over the plans and make sure there are no questions or concerns before i get bids or submit to the city.

[crazzycajun]

http://www.roughneckcity.com/images/...et_tool_1_.jpg

[SolarMike]

I don't know about where you all live, but aren't you tired of architects and engineers designing stuff on paper that isn't logical?
Whether it's a A/H hanging 8' above a drop ceiling with no access. A RTU 23' up on a 45 degree metal roof with no roof hatch. A 16" metal duct to fit through a triangle with a maximum side of 8". An RTU flue exhaust blowing directly into the side of the parapet wall 7" away, or replacing the 500+lbs pump in a 3'X5' area 4' off the ground. I could go on and on, but I digress. Anyway you get my drift.
I once talked with a guy from Germany who told me "All engineers/architects have to do two years in the field before they put anything on paper".

My poll question to you is: Do you think that it should be mandatory for architects and mechanical engineers in the USA to do the same?

It is the same in most parts of Europe, architects and engineers need do the work they expect others to do. Pinin Farina, who designed the Ferrari and Alfa bodywotk also did furniture and vacuum cleaners and worked putting them together to make sure they worked. If only........

[flange]

damn amtrak, going out of business saturated our biz with guys who used to drive trains!

[lolson]

They draw pretty pictures and we are expected to make it work

[19characterusername]

The problem is people in this industry do not always have time to do a good job of understanding each others problems. I have seen architects fail to understand how duct riser offsets eat ceiling or floor space, I have seen engineers call for equipment to be removed when it can't be, and I have seen fitters who required an hour of one on one instruction in the field to understand how to pipe diverting and mixing three port valves. On the other hand I have seen architects apologize in SD when they realized they didn't give me quite enough coil pull space in an ahu room, contractors issuing helpful bid RFI's (I.e walking me through a detail I might have missed), and engineers in the field helping to diagnose controls issues by listening to equipment and feeling pipes. The more we communicate our problems to each other the better we can help each other solve our problems in an integrated way that benefits the designers, builders and owners. The more we sit in our castles and draw the sharp lines in the sand even when we deal with minor issues (I.e. no one's getting sued for negligence) the more we cause our projects to fail or become unprofitable.