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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    East coast USA
    Posts
    960
    Vibration every three to 5 years unless they come back with an issue, then i would check again in a year or less depending on the findings.

    My take on this -and i not a chiller tech but deal with chillers on the maintenance side. But i do believe in predictive maintenance based on age and run time etc.. but if you don't believe in test than run the machine until it breaks than fix it. It may cost more than if you found the issue earlier. Trane says perform a tear down every tens years, most guys i hear in here, say tear down by run time. I had guys doing Vibrations test every quarter on pumps that to me is silly! In either event, you are either proactive or reactive. I think if you have a good chiller operator and take samples and do checks, that will tell a lot on whats going on and can than make an educated guess. However, most managers that over see the cost of contracts get this from a good sales guy , well IF you don't than the machine can die! so you better do it to CYA....

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote Originally Posted by txhvac View Post
    Say! How about CVHE-SB-18 must have come from the Witchcraft and Wizardry divison over at LaCrosse. Hey Graham you forgot the old oil return line amp method along with the trick quarter.
    Dont get me going on that oil return line amperage BS thing .
    And guess what they mention in SB18 ......wait for it .................oh yes I know a stethoscope or my long electrical screwdriver and a good ear .....suprise suprise suprise ....
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    A land down under
    Posts
    306
    Suggest you have a read of CTV-SVB29A-EN

    "The thrust (or "outboard") bearing used in CVHE/F/G and CDHF/G chiller compressors is an anti-friction type, "duplex" ball bearing. As a result of this bearing’s properties, the classic oil analysis program - successfully used to evaluate the condition of the babbitted
    inboard bearing - does NOT reliably indicate the condition of the thrust bearing."


    IMHO a vibration analysis program is a useful predictive maintenance tool for preditcing and correcting motor or bearing related faults prior to equipment failure. Rotor bar failures and other motor/bearing related faults can be detected through vibration analysis.

    We commonly use it on remote "fly in/fly out" industrial production sites where equipment downtime has huge financial impact.
    Necessity is the mother of invention

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwit View Post
    Suggest you have a read of CTV-SVB29A-EN

    "The thrust (or "outboard") bearing used in CVHE/F/G and CDHF/G chiller compressors is an anti-friction type, "duplex" ball bearing. As a result of this bearing’s properties, the classic oil analysis program - successfully used to evaluate the condition of the babbitted
    inboard bearing - does NOT reliably indicate the condition of the thrust bearing."


    IMHO a vibration analysis program is a useful predictive maintenance tool for preditcing and correcting motor or bearing related faults prior to equipment failure. Rotor bar failures and other motor/bearing related faults can be detected through vibration analysis.

    We commonly use it on remote "fly in/fly out" industrial production sites where equipment downtime has huge financial impact.
    I already did , and I do fully understand that the duplex ball bearing is an anti friction type bearing (hell I've changed enough of them ) thats what the stethescope is for . As for open rotor bars , thats what an open rotor tester is for and if shes running take an analog amp clamp and read the amperage and look for the rhythmic fuctuation in amperage . JMHO
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mixing oil and fire with a big spoon.
    Posts
    4,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwit View Post
    Suggest you have a read of CTV-SVB29A-EN...
    written by my instructor/mentor, Mr. Joe Gurney of the Nashville, TN office!

    i have ZERO problems with anyone not wanting to perform VA (Vibration Analysis) on any of their equipment...it doesn't fix anything...it only tells you what is going on and it uses engineering units so that trends can be accurately and objectively evaluated. go ahead, don't use it...next time you are in front of the chiller, ask yourself if anything is wrong and you don't know it.

    also, don't use your manifold gages to make sure that the pressure sensors are accurate...completely unneccessary.

    don't use your temperature probes either...your CALIBRATED fingers can do just as good a job....beer can cold and she's ready to go, right?

    don't need to use amp clamps, after all, there is a display telling you what is going on and those things NEVER fail or give faulty readings.

    volt meter? for what? to check that the voltage is within tolerance? what are you going to do about it anyway...not your problem, right?

    why do we even have tool bags then? walk in, walk around, listen to the chiller and put your hands on it and hand the customer a bill for molesting his chiller...next job.

    as for the reports, sure, i sometimes tell the customer, here are the faults that you have, they are not severe enough to warrant any repairs AT THIS TIME. now we can watch it, evaluate the faults as they grow and fix them when we want to. sometimes, i tell the customer that everything is ok...it all depends on the customer. but i now know things that you don't know.

    not all items warrant VA. i can perform VA on your condenser fan motor at your house, however, by the time you get the bill, you might have been able to buy 1 or 2 spares. so it is not for everything...you need to use common sense. but what if you have piece of equipment that can't be down except for the plant shutdown once per year?

    graham, as far as using the open rotor tester, you have to shut it down to perform the test. i can perform the test while the chiller is running and i can tell you if you have a high resistance joint (which won't show up in an open rotor test). by the time you perform the open rotor test, you probably didn't need to perform the test...you already knew there was a problem. by the time you can hear the bearings singing, you don't need VA to tell you that either.

    if you have a chiller plant with N+9 backups (yes, I know of one that has that), VA is probably not a big concern since down time is not an issue. but what if you have a bearing that has an issue and that issue grows fast? next thing you know, you are changing all of the bearings, shaft seals, getting the impellers reworked since they hit the side of the housing, changing out all of the oil contaminated with metal shavings, etc. that is called secondary damage. VA can show you original fault and can help you understand the rate the fault is developing. secondary damage is always WAAAAY more expensive than fixing the original problem.

    99+% of the time, all is ok. but who cares about that 99% being good? it's good! you, me, the customer...we care about the ones that aren't all ok. if you can tell which ones aren't ok, you can be the hero...we all can.

    peace out!
    my 1st time jumping out of a plane...http://youtu.be/Kv38G0MHsGo

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,022
    I do use gauges , amp clamp , thermometers and all the other tools I have access to that help me to complete my job .
    Re read my comment about open rotor Jay you can do it with an amp clamp eyes and a good ear if its running .Trust me Ive done it. No VA required .
    Were going to have to beg to differ on this one Jay, you swear by it like lots of others do that are willing to pay for it .
    To me too much empahasis is put on the whole issue and it all comes down to how well the VA guy reads the data and if all he can tell you is that I have faults that dont need attention and the tangiential interconnection has deviated from the magma flux capacitance ressonance indicator , resulting in an early termination of sequential indeterminable nut busting extremities .....Im really not interested ......
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mixing oil and fire with a big spoon.
    Posts
    4,267
    Quote Originally Posted by Healey Nut View Post
    ...it all comes down to how well the VA guy reads the data and if all he can tell you is that I have faults that dont need attention and the tangiential interconnection has deviated from the magma flux capacitance ressonance indicator , resulting in an early termination of sequential indeterminable nut busting extremities .....Im really not interested ......
    that is not what it all comes down to, however, that is very important too! i have been burned by VA guys that didn't know what they were doing and most of them DON'T call the faults when they should which makes them just as useless.

    a lack of understanding and unwillingness to learn is a common issue in the VA world.
    my 1st time jumping out of a plane...http://youtu.be/Kv38G0MHsGo

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote Originally Posted by jayguy View Post
    i have been burned by VA guys that didn't know what they were doing and most of them DON'T call the faults when they should which makes them just as useless.
    Exactly ......My methods are tried, tested, proven to be correct and not open to subjective interpretation and answers like ...well possibly this and maybe that .

    I had a chiller with a suspected open rotor bar . I tried my analog amp clamp and listen method and confirmed it . Customer wanted to bring in the" Vibe Guys " to be sure .
    I told him to save his money .I can pull the charge remove the bearing end plate so I can turn it by hand and confirm it 100% with an open rotor tester .
    You going to have to pull the charge anyway coz shes coming apart to yank the motor .
    He trusted my judgement and I was right and I saved him the cost of his "Vibe Guy" and his subjective maybes .
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    A land down under
    Posts
    306
    Graham, I understand where you are coming from but I can tell you I have seen high resistance rotor bar joints diagnosed by VA long before it was evident by an amp meter, audible noise difference or noticeable vibration.

    Have also seen motor failures when rotors and thrust bearings let go between service intervals while at the same time as were diagnosed prior to failure by the "good ear" of our technicians.

    Point is if down time is a critical cost some customers can't wait for the problem to develop to the point where detectable by the stethoscope, long screwdriver or analogue amp meter. We are only in business to meet/exceed our customers requirements weather it be through pro-active or re-active maintenance.
    Necessity is the mother of invention

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwit View Post
    Point is if down time is a critical cost some customers
    If down time is critical then they should have a back up plan , either a back up chiller or at least the quick connects availabe for the water hookups for a rental chiller . Mechanical stuff breaks down thats why we have jobs , if the facility is to cheap to realize this and doesnt invest the money to protect its buisness from loss of production due to a failure thats not my problem .

    I just get to make money from overtime to get er" up and running again .

    Theres too much reliance on high tech gadgetry to analyze stuff infinitum.:
    Why do you think our health care systems are so messed up ........ Hell they send you for a battery of tests and an MRI for a boil on your ass these days !!!!!
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    in a service van down by the river...........
    Posts
    229
    I always belived that VA taken long before any suspected trouble would serve as a good baseline to compare future VA results to in order to catch trends that are moving in a undesirable direction and tracked so that future maintenance can me modified as the situation needs. I am now afraid to hear others opinions on other testing like Eddy-current testing. I guess I can tell the structural health of my tubes by the lack of water treatment chemicals in my oil samples...............thanks for the varied opinions. It never hurts to learn what others belive and why they feel so strongly about their beliefs.......
    It's All about Heat.............................to a degree

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Prattville, Alabama
    Posts
    1,993
    I believe VA is most advantageous to the owner who rarely, if ever, has an experienced chiller service tech look at his chiller. The owner who has such a tech look at his chiller regularly, has little if any need for it. However, I do believe it is to the owner's benefit to have an initial test performed, to get a baseline in case of any future "need" or desire to get one.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,022
    [QUOTE= Eddy-current testing. I guess I can tell the structural health of my tubes by the lack of water treatment chemicals in my oil samples.............[/QUOTE]

    If you have water treatment chemicals in your oil samples ....VA aint gonna help you
    Ps I do believe in Eddy current ..
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

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