Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 53 to 65 of 92
  1. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
    Posts
    3,969
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Maybe we can do a little bonding here, for the record I am also "for" anything we can do to provide comfort, and use our energy wisely. What I am not for, and I bet thousands of small a/c business owners would agree, is for things to be forced on us. Most of us don't have the resources to do everything to perform all the aspects of the home energy business and a/c installation and service business. Here is a perfect example, I go into a restaurant and ask for crab legs, and they say we don't have them, do I say this is a restaurant isn't it? See not every business carries or performs everything related to their business, it's a resource issue. If every small business was required to carry or perform everything related to their business, there would only be big business, then we would all pay out the rear for everything, follow me? this is why there is separation, and also separation develops more jobs.


    Had to edit here: and they say we don't have them.
    I get it Mr. Bill. Big problems involved in integrating everything so that they work in harmony. Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.
    I don't have a problem with separation, as long as it works in unison with all the other aspects of home improvement. How we accomplish this-I don't know. I think it is good we are talking about it here, 'cause it is being talked about all over the place. One thing I do know, is that things are broke, and even evidence from studies performed by the HVAC industry shows that things are broke. How we fix it-I don't know, but talking about the problem is a good first step.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,005
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Problem there Tips is...

    The public is the marketplace. If they WANT high quality/high efficiency installs... they will pay for them. Judging from the folks I talk to (and counter talk at the supply houses: It appears a significant segment of the market cares only about price.

    I DO agree that we need stricter licensing, as well as more CE classes.
    IMO, it doesn't have to cost them a lot more to achieve a system efficiency improvement.

    Most equipment is way oversized with duct systems along with Return Air filter areas that are too small.

    When you downsize the equipment it helps to improve the efficiency in many areas, including airflow.

    Even those customer's that don't want to pay for a Home Audit there are simple math formula equations using their summer & winter design numbers for their area & the Mid-level of weatherization they have, to illustrate what they would be able to do to downsize with a good safety margin & thereby improve their energy efficiency situation.
    Also, using SWING-Temp-spread room stats, etc.

    Yes, a lot of them would be afraid to do it.
    If they have their equipments' records of performance you can also extrapolate from that data, by also testing output & the efficiency of their present system to reveal its ballpark performance. There are easy ways to do that...

    I can't see ever going back with the same oversized equipment on inadequate duct systems that doesn't perform, etc.

    Use some of 'Doc' Falke's ideas - Steps to Redesign an Existing HVAC System

  3. #55
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    6,326
    John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

    Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

    I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

    Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

    The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

    Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

    Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

    Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,068
    Quote Originally Posted by tipsrfine View Post
    Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.
    This scenario could happen also if "only" a load calculation was performed, you do a LC and it comes back @3.5 tons, and now Mr. HO goes and does all the things you described, he is now over sized. See why there really is no answer? and as long as some of the smaller businesses don't have the resources, and better yet have no options of calling someone in to perform the Home Energy Audit and LC, were stuck were we are. I am being completely honest with you, in Houston in the summer time, some small a/c businesses run non stop sometimes, performing service, and lining out installations from equipment sold on service calls, I know we do sometimes.
    I know all were talking about here is for a good cause, I understand that, but I am in the business to support myself and others and pay my bills. I can't continue to do this if me or my other tech is hung up performing a LC when we have folks dieing in the heat, they will pick up the phone and call another one of the 1000 a/c company's in Houston. So it's a toss up, do we spend our limited time stopping at every job we do or possibly don't sell, to put the service calls on hold? Service is what sells the product, if you have no service calls, you have no product to sell, then whats the point of even keeping the doors open? See this is deeper than just tossing out the idea all this Home Energy and LC stuff should be required. If you have any ideas on how a small business with limited resources can stop for a couple hrs during our summertime high call load, I am all ears. Funny thing is, I have never in 28 years had one complaint of someones a/c or heater not performing as good, if not better than their prior system, when we change it out, how does that happen? does it matter if the customer is happy? mine all have been, go figure.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,406
    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

    Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

    I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

    Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

    The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

    Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

    Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

    Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.
    THX for the heads up Al; I hold the CO/CA cert from NCI, they are good folks. Will look into it in the late summer to schedule.

    Over here in Atlanta; we are in similar shoes to Houston. Windows do not do much good unless the install includes serious reduction of infiltration. Attic insulation is the big bang for the buck, it is amazing how many homes are poorly insulated... even homes built as recently as the early 2000's. Then there is infiltration. One can simply hire a painter-dude to caulk up the exterior of the home... and realize a significant savings. Thankfully most homes over here do have basements; and as such can be base-plate sealed.

    I wish foaming the underside of the roof deck was not as expensive as it is... that is one of the better solutions. However the foam guys know they have a great product and sell it as such.

    I have subs that do all three things noted above: caulking, windows, blow attics (and once in a while foam the bottom of the roof deck). Customers have to be determined to stay in their homes for a L O N G time to get a payback. And comfort... well many folks just do not perceive it. To them it is just hot or cold... they do not even notice subtle differences.

    In the marketplace; one has to understand what is in demand, and sell it to folks. If one has the greatest thing since sliced bread... yet nobody wants a sandwich... well you are not gonna sell much. Just the way markets work.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,068
    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

    Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

    I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

    Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

    The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

    Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

    Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

    Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.
    Can I get an Amen here?
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,406
    Quote Originally Posted by tipsrfine View Post
    I get it Mr. Bill. Big problems involved in integrating everything so that they work in harmony. Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.
    I don't have a problem with separation, as long as it works in unison with all the other aspects of home improvement. How we accomplish this-I don't know. I think it is good we are talking about it here, 'cause it is being talked about all over the place. One thing I do know, is that things are broke, and even evidence from studies performed by the HVAC industry shows that things are broke. How we fix it-I don't know, but talking about the problem is a good first step.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    This scenario could happen also if "only" a load calculation was performed, you do a LC and it comes back @3.5 tons, and now Mr. HO goes and does all the things you described, he is now over sized. See why there really is no answer? and as long as some of the smaller businesses don't have the resources, and better yet have no options of calling someone in to perform the Home Energy Audit and LC, were stuck were we are. I am being completely honest with you, in Houston in the summer time, some small a/c businesses run non stop sometimes, performing service, and lining out installations from equipment sold on service calls, I know we do sometimes.
    I know all were talking about here is for a good cause, I understand that, but I am in the business to support myself and others and pay my bills. I can't continue to do this if me or my other tech is hung up performing a LC when we have folks dieing in the heat, they will pick up the phone and call another one of the 1000 a/c company's in Houston. So it's a toss up, do we spend our limited time stopping at every job we do or possibly don't sell, to put the service calls on hold? Service is what sells the product, if you have no service calls, you have no product to sell, then whats the point of even keeping the doors open? See this is deeper than just tossing out the idea all this Home Energy and LC stuff should be required. If you have any ideas on how a small business with limited resources can stop for a couple hrs during our summertime high call load, I am all ears. Funny thing is, I have never in 28 years had one complaint of someones a/c or heater not performing as good, if not better than their prior system, when we change it out, how does that happen? does it matter if the customer is happy? mine all have been, go figure.
    IMO both of you guys have valid points.

    The reason I am going to get the home energy audit cert this fall is so I can address this stuff on a sales call. I have had limited luck already explaining this to folks and suggesting they get an energy audit. The ones that did; well we planned a system that would work with the repairs that were yet to be done... they bought it. Results after the envelope improvements were done, along with the new system, were/are impressive.

    I know I will get flamed for this: One does not need a full LC to estimate some things about equipment size... however if one wants really good room to room air distribution... then one probably should do one.

    Time to get some ZZZ's; I am in a home show the next 3 days... can you say leads and leads and leads.... <grin>
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,068
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    IMO both of you guys have valid points.

    The reason I am going to get the home energy audit cert this fall is so I can address this stuff on a sales call..
    John, ANYTHING you can do to increase you knowledge of this business is a plus in my world. If I was paid for all my knowledge, and was able to totally utilize it on every call and get paid for it, I would now be on my own Island in the Pacific drinking a margarita, with a few Island girls. As Al said, some folks don't care to reinvent the wheel, they just want to be cool in summer and warm in the winter, after all isn't it the customers money and ain't they the boss? Soon we a/c guys will seem like new car salesman to some folks, offering all the bells and whistles, when all they asked for was a plain Jane 4 door Chevy sedan. If there was an answer that fit everyone, everyone would be doing it, so there must not be an answer that everyone can live with.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    greenville , sc
    Posts
    718
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Personally, I would not even touch this job... because of the potential problems.

    me , i will . cash . upfront. and first name only..... oh, wait thats what op's got . DANG!
    catch a man a fish , feed him for a day.
    teach a man to fish , ruin a good business opportunity.

  10. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,253
    Back to the original post........due to the HO not wanting/needing cooling I would suggest a condensing boiler and a minimal amount of floor heating and an air handler for the second floor. He can then add cooling if desired in the future and an HRV if desired as well. This heat load is quite small and could be easily served with a minimal amount of ductwork..

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    This scenario could happen also if "only" a load calculation was performed, you do a LC and it comes back @3.5 tons, and now Mr. HO goes and does all the things you described, he is now over sized. See why there really is no answer? and as long as some of the smaller businesses don't have the resources, and better yet have no options of calling someone in to perform the Home Energy Audit and LC, were stuck were we are. I am being completely honest with you, in Houston in the summer time, some small a/c businesses run non stop sometimes, performing service, and lining out installations from equipment sold on service calls, I know we do sometimes.
    I know all we're talking about here is for a good cause, I understand that, but I am in the business to support myself and others and pay my bills. I can't continue to do this if me or my other tech is hung up performing a LC when we have folks dieing in the heat, they will pick up the phone and call another one of the 1000 a/c company's in Houston. So it's a toss up, do we spend our limited time stopping at every job we do or possibly don't sell, to put the service calls on hold? Service is what sells the product, if you have no service calls, you have no product to sell, then whats the point of even keeping the doors open?
    See this is deeper than just tossing out the idea all this Home Energy and LC stuff should be required. If you have any ideas on how a small business with limited resources can stop for a couple hrs during our summertime high call load, I am all ears.
    Funny thing is, I have never in 28 years had one complaint of someones a/c or heater not performing as good, if not better than their prior system, when we change it out, how does that happen? does it matter if the customer is happy? mine all have been, go figure.
    I know some of you will condemn me for my position on this efficiency issue, but I'll state some of it anyway.

    Our global economy will collapse if oil prices go to 150 to 200 dollars or more a barrel; this will happen if we don't act in every way possible to prevent it, we must act now...

    Our 7 billion human beings face an imminent and certain economic crisis unless our global mass communication media begins now to focus on how we must act together immediately to avoid oil going, in the near future, from $150 to $200 dollars or more a barrel which will totally sink our global economies.

    On those summer calls where there is no equipment replacement, a quick evaluation of there system will show you whether they need some efficiency work performed, I'd set them up for some reviewing during the off season, when you have time.

    I'd also have ready made hand out literature explaining what may need to be done during slack times, along with maybe some well thought-up low-cost, slack-time radio spots.

    We need to work with media to get our message out there with perhaps some interviews, etc.

    This effort is no longer just about them saving on their utility bills, it's also about preventing the too soon collapse of our global state & national economies due to the excessive cost of all fossil based energy sources.

    We need to do everything we can to provide more complete energy efficiency based service for our customers.

    IMO, the government made a mistake outlawing 12-SEER A/Cs, because we could make them get 13-SEER & do other needed work to help them get better SEER numbers than the new 13 & 14-SEER units without any retrofit work. Also, would save in both heat & cool modes.

    The rough math equations with safety margins, using the design numbers for the climate area you work, are a lot better than nothing...

    I can walk into a home situation & simply visually point out a number of things that are leading to a lack of achieving Rated Btuh & efficiency numbers..., so can you!

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Red Deer, Alberta
    Posts
    655
    Quote Originally Posted by udarrell View Post
    We need to do everything we can to provide more complete energy efficiency based service for our customers.
    In my case you are preaching to the choir, but most of the congregation aren't listening and right now don't care. I had a load calculation performed (by hand and scientific calculator) back in 1982 when building, and the results were pretty close to actuality, but the only ones who cared were the people who sold/installed the heating system, the local energy conserving society, and us the designers / homeowners. Even when I sold the place last year, the real estate people didn't care, I only lucked into a buyer from Europe who wanted that type of housing, and ONLY if I could prove it with 5 years' worth of energy bills (I did). The house we bought in Red Deer (superinsulated) had been on the market over a year and no bites before we came along.

    Hence my earlier question about the heating load in California being only 4.33 BTU/hr per sq. ft. for a 32F difference in temp on the coldest day. Ours was appx 19 BTU/hr per sq. ft. for a 106F difference in temp but you know what? No one cared. Houses usually get sold by location and visible features here, so we put in some granite countertops and Grohe fixtures to enjoy before we get too old, maybe by then people will be looking at what's in the walls (I sortaaaah doubt it though).

    The point I'm trying to make is that very few people will pay for energy efficiency until the crunch comes, same with LC, the home designer should include that with the design. After all, if the home is built to the exact design specs, then the heating and cooling (adjusted for location) should also be within spec.

    I agree with Mr. Bill that this (load calculation) should be a separate service (licensed and insured) and if you install (licensed and insured) to the stated specs, and everyone did their job properly, there likely would be fewer difficulties and far less "finger pointing"...

    All this disagreement just reinforces the OP's original doubts about the professionalism displayed by the contractors he originally sought out, but hopefully steers him now in the direction of better educated contractors. I know if I could afford that size of home, I would not want any mistakes on the basics.

    Just another

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,068
    Darrell, my brother fought in the battle in Hue south Vietnam,I remember him coming home “thank God” saying, I would have been better off if they would have just dropped me out of a plane into that war zone, because there was nothing they taught us that prepared me for that battle. Darrell, “every call” is like a new battle for us we are not prepared to fight, you cannot stereotype people. Some don’t care, some don’t have the time in their busy day to listen, some think your just trying to sell them something they don’t need. I know we have a lot of arm chair QB’s here, but this sad state of our economy has folks on edge about doing anything but the minimal, and most give you the deer in the headlights look when you bring up, a total home energy audit, or even a LC. Darrell, I can appreciate and admire your desire to see this stuff done, but how many times must we be told were not interested, we would really just like to get our a/c going, can a person take before throwing in the towel? You see Darrell this become a mental thing then, not just a lazy thing as some would suggest. Darrell, I want to come out to your home today and show you a few things you can do to your new car, it will perform better and get better gas mileage and save our future. My guess is you have seen one of these commercials or read about this stuff in Car and Driver, and maybe these suggestions will work, but still your skeptical and you don’t have the time for this, your happy your car is just getting you around town, follow me? You know who I blame for this? “ALL” of us that set and blame each other and don’t do something about it, what better business to incorporate the load calculations into, than a complete home energy business? It would be an easier sale for that business, “and” most in that business are already geared for all the questions and time they will encounter. It still just boggles my mind, that the Home Energy Audit Business don’t just on this, it seems they just want to pass the buck, and at the same time talk about the a/c company’s that don’t have the time or resources to perform all this. If a person really believes in something, they will see it’s done, regardless of the roadblocks, I see a lot of talk and blame here but no action. Some act if though incorporating the LC into the Home Energy Audit Business, is like avoiding the plague. There is nothing written in stone and never has been on who is responsible for the LC, it was just dumped on the a/c company’s back before all this Home Energy business even started, so who is responsible? And who would be better fit to perform the LC? I say the company’s that are “totally” gear for it, and most a/c company’s don’t have the personal in their day to day operations to do this, excuse’s? what is the excuse of why the Home Energy Audit Co. can’t perform this? Personally I bet if you polled 100 customers, they would rather the Home Energy Audit Co. perform this, than Bubba’s A/C tech.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event