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me , i will . cash . upfront. and first name only..... oh, wait thats what op's got . DANG!Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech
catch a man a fish , feed him for a day.
teach a man to fish , ruin a good business opportunity.
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Back to the original post........due to the HO not wanting/needing cooling I would suggest a condensing boiler and a minimal amount of floor heating and an air handler for the second floor. He can then add cooling if desired in the future and an HRV if desired as well. This heat load is quite small and could be easily served with a minimal amount of ductwork..
AOP Committee/Professional Member*
I know some of you will condemn me for my position on this efficiency issue, but I'll state some of it anyway.
Our global economy will collapse if oil prices go to 150 to 200 dollars or more a barrel; this will happen if we don't act in every way possible to prevent it, we must act now...
Our 7 billion human beings face an imminent and certain economic crisis unless our global mass communication media begins now to focus on how we must act together immediately to avoid oil going, in the near future, from $150 to $200 dollars or more a barrel which will totally sink our global economies.
On those summer calls where there is no equipment replacement, a quick evaluation of there system will show you whether they need some efficiency work performed, I'd set them up for some reviewing during the off season, when you have time.
I'd also have ready made hand out literature explaining what may need to be done during slack times, along with maybe some well thought-up low-cost, slack-time radio spots.
We need to work with media to get our message out there with perhaps some interviews, etc.
This effort is no longer just about them saving on their utility bills, it's also about preventing the too soon collapse of our global state & national economies due to the excessive cost of all fossil based energy sources.
We need to do everything we can to provide more complete energy efficiency based service for our customers.
IMO, the government made a mistake outlawing 12-SEER A/Cs, because we could make them get 13-SEER & do other needed work to help them get better SEER numbers than the new 13 & 14-SEER units without any retrofit work. Also, would save in both heat & cool modes.
The rough math equations with safety margins, using the design numbers for the climate area you work, are a lot better than nothing...
I can walk into a home situation & simply visually point out a number of things that are leading to a lack of achieving Rated Btuh & efficiency numbers..., so can you!
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udarrell
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In my case you are preaching to the choir, but most of the congregation aren't listening and right now don't care. I had a load calculation performed (by hand and scientific calculator) back in 1982 when building, and the results were pretty close to actuality, but the only ones who cared were the people who sold/installed the heating system, the local energy conserving society, and us the designers / homeowners. Even when I sold the place last year, the real estate people didn't care, I only lucked into a buyer from Europe who wanted that type of housing, and ONLY if I could prove it with 5 years' worth of energy bills (I did). The house we bought in Red Deer (superinsulated) had been on the market over a year and no bites before we came along.
Hence my earlier question about the heating load in California being only 4.33 BTU/hr per sq. ft. for a 32F difference in temp on the coldest day. Ours was appx 19 BTU/hr per sq. ft. for a 106F difference in temp but you know what? No one cared. Houses usually get sold by location and visible features here, so we put in some granite countertops and Grohe fixtures to enjoy before we get too old, maybe by then people will be looking at what's in the walls (I sortaaaah doubt it though).
The point I'm trying to make is that very few people will pay for energy efficiency until the crunch comes, same with LC, the home designer should include that with the design. After all, if the home is built to the exact design specs, then the heating and cooling (adjusted for location) should also be within spec.
I agree with Mr. Bill that this (load calculation) should be a separate service (licensed and insured) and if you install (licensed and insured) to the stated specs, and everyone did their job properly, there likely would be fewer difficulties and far less "finger pointing"...
All this disagreement just reinforces the OP's original doubts about the professionalism displayed by the contractors he originally sought out, but hopefully steers him now in the direction of better educated contractors. I know if I could afford that size of home, I would not want any mistakes on the basics.
Just another
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Darrell, my brother fought in the battle in Hue south Vietnam,I remember him coming home “thank God” saying, I would have been better off if they would have just dropped me out of a plane into that war zone, because there was nothing they taught us that prepared me for that battle. Darrell, “every call” is like a new battle for us we are not prepared to fight, you cannot stereotype people. Some don’t care, some don’t have the time in their busy day to listen, some think your just trying to sell them something they don’t need. I know we have a lot of arm chair QB’s here, but this sad state of our economy has folks on edge about doing anything but the minimal, and most give you the deer in the headlights look when you bring up, a total home energy audit, or even a LC. Darrell, I can appreciate and admire your desire to see this stuff done, but how many times must we be told were not interested, we would really just like to get our a/c going, can a person take before throwing in the towel? You see Darrell this become a mental thing then, not just a lazy thing as some would suggest. Darrell, I want to come out to your home today and show you a few things you can do to your new car, it will perform better and get better gas mileage and save our future. My guess is you have seen one of these commercials or read about this stuff in Car and Driver, and maybe these suggestions will work, but still your skeptical and you don’t have the time for this, your happy your car is just getting you around town, follow me? You know who I blame for this? “ALL” of us that set and blame each other and don’t do something about it, what better business to incorporate the load calculations into, than a complete home energy business? It would be an easier sale for that business, “and” most in that business are already geared for all the questions and time they will encounter. It still just boggles my mind, that the Home Energy Audit Business don’t just on this, it seems they just want to pass the buck, and at the same time talk about the a/c company’s that don’t have the time or resources to perform all this. If a person really believes in something, they will see it’s done, regardless of the roadblocks, I see a lot of talk and blame here but no action. Some act if though incorporating the LC into the Home Energy Audit Business, is like avoiding the plague. There is nothing written in stone and never has been on who is responsible for the LC, it was just dumped on the a/c company’s back before all this Home Energy business even started, so who is responsible? And who would be better fit to perform the LC? I say the company’s that are “totally” gear for it, and most a/c company’s don’t have the personal in their day to day operations to do this, excuse’s? what is the excuse of why the Home Energy Audit Co. can’t perform this? Personally I bet if you polled 100 customers, they would rather the Home Energy Audit Co. perform this, than Bubba’s A/C tech.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden
"When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
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What I see here is, most that want to set and promote the LC or finger point, don't seem to want to take the risk involved, maybe this is why. They seem to want to do everything that don't involve any liability or risks. Yea, lets do out Energy Audit and get paid and get the heck out of Dodge, and leave the risk and liability of the LC to the a/c company, that way there is no way we can be blamed. Most folks in this world in the past, that have a product or service they really believed in, or promoted, took the risks to move forward with it, they did not set and argue and wait until the Government got involved, or set forth who is responsible. Bill Gates bought the DOS program, he did not set and wait to find someone working on a operating system he could incorporate his program into, no, he moved forward with what he believed in.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden
"When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
AOP Committee/Professional Member*
enb54: It is in the economic interest of media to get actively involved concerning the forth coming energy cost crisis, if they don't heed the warnings now, it will be too late & all economies will sink in the fossil fuel quick sand.
If public & coml media doesn't get actively involved the reality is that all fossil fuel dependent economies, which is nearly all of them, will likely crash sometime in the not too distant future.
A war against Iran could trigger +150 $ a BBL Oil prices, as crazy speculation kicks in, which would only take a matter of time for economies to crash & burn...
Real estate agents need to be educated on how to effectively use the big present & future advantages of owning an energy efficient home.
Yes, I watch HGTV channel where the HVAC system or high Home Energy Efficiency is never even mentioned by the agents & buyers never bring it up; the agent may only rarely even mention that the HVAC system is brand new.
It is all what the house appears to be on the surface, then "Holmes' On Homes" on HGTV comes in with his inspections & they realize they bought a worthless, costly total lemon... This needs to change...
I advise buyer's to ask for at least a year of the home's utility bills; & some get them. If they won't provide them, give that reason for not considering buying the house...
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udarrell
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Of course we all know that we should be worried about energy efficiency, even the media and politicians. Unfortunately I'll bet the granite, undermount huge granite sink, and fancy German fixtures will do a better job of selling next time we move, UNLESS we get lucky and some European immigrant happens by...
Mr. Bill you are right about pursuing dreams and putting your money on the line... Perhaps I'll ask my insurance people what it would take for liability insurance for the energy audit business, the body is getting a bit tired of bush roads and 4 wheel drive suspensions... Of course, then I'll have to perhaps move my wardrobe up a notch or two or three...
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we are all in deep s**t anyway. Udarrell, you have to remember that people are not planners, they are crisis managers. It always was and always will be. we simply don't have the collective wisdom to do what is right for the world when we are hard wired to do what we, at the time, think is best for "me" or my family. We will find any excuse to not do something when the problem is placed in front of us, be it religion, money or some other diversion.
That said, I still try to do as you do and get the most efficient system possible which is why I proposed the boiler system. The HO can even add solar thermal or PV if desired.
AOP Committee/Professional Member*
Yes, you guys are all right including Mr Bill; problem is I can't help fighting for a sustainable energy & economic future; though my fight so far is in vane...
The total media focus is on the Republican presidential horse race & not a question by the media or a word in all the endless debates about the horrible energy cost pitfalls that we need to take worldwide action on before it is too late; if it is not too late already... Nor do they have a clue as to what we need to do & right now...
MEDIA has analyzed that primary race a million times with no useful value for us to put to use...
I won't be around long, but I feel for all those that will have to suffer because there was never any real political or mass media focus on the real economic enemy that will overtake them because those who could have made the difference did not have sense enough to act.
All the communication flows toward us from politicians & media &, you can't get a message to them that they will notice or act on.
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udarrell
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Yea the worst part here is, just because I am so outspoken about this here, it makes me look like the bad guy. Well someone has to speak for folks that just just want to avoid the issue, or just don't want to let anyone here know they have the same opinion as me. I was raised to confront, not avoid, it's in my blood, so see I just can't help it.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden
"When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
Professional Member*
I give up. The last local program that was advocating energy audits have quit doing so. It is just as well, because nothing was getting changed. The last audit I did was for a hvac contractor who needed the audit to qualify his customer for a loan. Existing unit 2 ton, 8 supply vents, one homeowner living there who has the 2 vents in the basement closed because he never goes down there anymore. That leaves 6 supply vents fed by 6" ducts. They will be putting in a 2 and 1/2 ton system 'cause homeowner stated old system seemed to be struggling. Lousy envelope and nearly no insulation in attic. A loose friend of mine called me about her new system icing up. Went out there and they installed a 2 & 1/2 ton system in her house; she has 4 vents upstairs and all the vents in the basement are disconnected & sealed off 'cause she doesn't use her basement. I got into this energy auditing & the "whole house" idea thinking it was a good sollution to something that was broken. It may get fixed, but it's not going to be through any kind of energy auditing revolution; that's for sure.
Sorry to those I pissed off. You won't be getting any more gruff out of me.
An answer without a question is meaningless.
Information without understanding is useless.
You can lead a horse to water............
http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com
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Check out the movie "Idiocracy". I think I can see a connection.
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Hey, I am not upset with you at all, most folks here that know me personally, know I don't roll that way. What I saw was, we were just on opposite sides of the fence, and we were doing our best to meet each other at the gate, which I think we got real close. Passions is what created most of the inventions or ideas in this world, with this issue there is just way to many folks on both sides of the fence, and both with good reasons. We all can only do so much in a days work, and we have to put our highest priorities first, if we plan on surviving. In our business, unlike the oil company's, our customers have the upper hand, they are the boss, they pay our bill's, so we are at their mercy, we can suggest, but we can't force. Bottom line from what I have witnessed, money is the biggest obstacle that keeps the a/c and heating and energy audit business and our customers decades apart, it's takes money to get the message out, no money, no message, it's that simple.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden
"When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
Professional Member*
It's the people that put 2 & 1/2 ton systems in a house with 4 6" supply registers that really teed me off. I've seen so much of that kind of slop, and I don't think that can be honestly put on the customers.
An answer without a question is meaningless.
Information without understanding is useless.
You can lead a horse to water............
http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com
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I concur, same as the 148,000BTU boiler in a 50,000 BTU house.
Houses aren't viewed as a "system" by most people.
I really think Udarrell nailed it
it's not really an energy crisis, it's a financial crisis.
I do however share Mr. Bill's view on business, I have to make a living as much as the next guy AND college tuition isn't cheap.
A man's got to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
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No you are just young and relatively inexperienced and we were all there at one time in our life.
You are wrong however not to put at least some of the blame on the homeowners. They are the ones that do not educate themselves sufficiently or do not value the knowledge that is imparted to them by well meaning enlightened technicians. A great deal of the blame does belong to uneducated uncaring technicians and contractors and worse the ones that employee salesmen that use Load calcs and audits as dog and pony show sales gimmicks.
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I'm 50 years old, and I don't feel young. I see it as a self perpetuating cycle between the homeowners & the contractors; it's not as old as "Which came first, the chicken or the egg", but it's getting there. Appreciate your advice & comments.
An answer without a question is meaningless.
Information without understanding is useless.
You can lead a horse to water............
http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com
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Good advice GA.
An answer without a question is meaningless.
Information without understanding is useless.
You can lead a horse to water............
http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com
Professional Member*
Business practices aside, and back on topic, this home deserves a lot more than a small simple furnace. Tight construction, 3 story, many residents living in very different zones, one of them being senior, - there will be no comfort without an extensive zoning system. At least there is a good sized mechanical room in the basement.
Here's my recommendation:
Combined Heating/Domestic Hot water system in the mech room feeding baseboard heat throughout. 24-hour outside air ventilation from 'dirty' areas (bathrooms, kitchen, gym/sauna, mech room). Common areas to contain concealed mini-split fancoils for the inevitable, yet minor, cooling demand (1 per floor). This will be controlled by simple single stage heat-only stats in each zone, with heat/cool stats in the common areas.
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