Fed up with Manual J!

[tipsrfine]

Who is they? would that be the same folks that created the:

'Free Enterprise System'
An economic system where few restrictions are placed on business activities and ownership. In this system, governments generally have minimal ownership of enterprises in the market place. This system aims for limited restrictions on trade and minimal government intervention.

My "no blame" philosophy goes hand in hand with my "no excuses" philosophy Mr. Bill. Everyone understands where you are comming from with your position on why you have been doing things the way you've been doing- you had to make a go of it as a business and you did as good as you could by your customers. You've stated yourself that someone trying to live up to all of the "correct" ways wouldn't last long in your neck of the woods. I believe that to be true, up to a point. I admit to pointing a finger at contractors such as yourself as being part of the overall problem, but I'm not saying you are in any way dishonest or uneducated in any way at all. I'm just saying you, and all of the contractors you have to compete against, are all caught up in a self-perpetuating cycle of having to compete against each other that guarantees that not only do homeowners get hvac systems that are oversized, connected to crappy duct systems, in a home that leaks air like a seive & under-insulated, but they mostly never even get told of what the correct ways are so they at least have the opportunity of making the choice. The only problem I have with your recent posts is that you seem to be making excuses & almost advocating leaving things the way they have been. My memories of your recent posts are that of mocking & belittling those who are attempting to set things right. I didn't name any names in my last post, but it shure enough flushed you out of the brush.

[Mr Bill]

It appears a significant segment of the market cares only about price.

John, it appears? I think the writing is on the wall every time I pass a Wal-Mart.

[ga-hvac-tech]

John, it appears? I think the writing is on the wall every time I pass a Wal-Mart.

Thankfully there is not a storefront 'wallyworld' of HVAC one can just walk into, pick a few big boxes onto their cart, and pay a fixed price for an install at the counter. Well, not yet anyway.

I have worked hard to develop a market of folks who care... it has paid off. It was not easy... but the referrals are coming in now from folks that appreciate what I can do, rather than how little it will cost.

Part of it is to simply NOT work for the folks who are only price conscious (or get all their tech data from an engineer and take bids). One has to decide what they are worth... and not sell themselves short.

[Mr Bill]

The only problem I have with your recent posts is that you seem to be making excuses & almost advocating leaving things the way they have been. My memories of your recent posts are that of mocking & belittling those who are attempting to set things right. I didn't name any names in my last post, but it shure enough flushed you out of the brush.

Would that be those same posts were I have said I do condone LC's, and those posts were I said I personally think there should be a separation of the energy audit business and LC's? Yes I can see were you feel I condemn LC's by those posts. Wow isn't it funny how some folks are so determined to prove a point, they can really read a lot more into someones posts.

[Mr Bill]

Thankfully there is not a storefront 'wallyworld' of HVAC one can just walk into, pick a few big boxes onto their cart, and pay a fixed price for an install at the counter. Well, not yet anyway.

Well my point was, if this whole country was not focused on "price" Wally World would be out of business, do you see Wally going out of business soon?

[Mr Bill]

You know there is a open market for a business willing to perform Load calculations and Energy Audits, this could be the next Microsoft of the business world. I can't figure out for the life of me, if there is so much of a demand for this, where are all the new businesses? Man, money just laying on the table, while folks argue over who should do it.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Well my point was, if this whole country was not focused on "price" Wally World would be out of business, do you see Wally going out of business soon?

No, I think WallyWorld will be around for a while... Over here the $ stores are eating WalMart's lunch and dinner both. Price will always be a driver.

I told the guy at Costco he could either get rid of the Lennox display or I would go to Sams... he just ignored me and walked away. Guess I will be leaving Costco.

IMO it is not so much the 'cheap' as it is too much capacity and not enough market. Price competition gets fierce when there are too many sellers and not enough buyers.

OTOH: It is good for all of us to have stuff cheap... makes for a fatter retirement account... if we ever get to retire...

[ga-hvac-tech]

You know there is a open market for a business willing to perform Load calculations and Energy Audits, this could be the next Microsoft of the business world. I can't figure out for the life of me, if there is so much of a demand for this, where are all the new businesses? Man, money just laying on the table, while folks argue over who should do it.

I wonder if the 'who should do it' is more 'how can the govt get their slice of the $$$ and power pies'...

I plan to take one or the other of the home energy audit classes (BPI or RESNET) and get the cert this fall. NO, I am not planning to do energy audits... rather have a working knowledge of the trade so I can use it in sales.

Was talking to a guy Tuesday... he was asking all kinds of questions. I had EVERY answer he wanted or needed... and I could tell he was a little surprised... I think he was trying to stump me (engineer type). I got the sale based on knowing my trade and being able to talk it clearly.

[tipsrfine]

I'm not saying you are against LC Mr. Bill, and this is not just about load calcs, it's about EVERYTHING regarding a homes ability to provide comfort and use energy wisely. My favorite analogy is a doctor hooking up an IV to a patient to provide blood to the patient, but doesn't bother to notice the huge gash in the patients neck.

[Mr Bill]

it's about EVERYTHING regarding a homes ability to provide comfort and use energy wisely.

Maybe we can do a little bonding here, for the record I am also "for" anything we can do to provide comfort, and use our energy wisely. What I am not for, and I bet thousands of small a/c business owners would agree, is for things to be forced on us. Most of us don't have the resources to do everything to perform all the aspects of the home energy business and a/c installation and service business. Here is a perfect example, I go into a restaurant and ask for crab legs, and they say we don't have them, do I say this is a restaurant isn't it? See not every business carries or performs everything related to their business, it's a resource issue. If every small business was required to carry or perform everything related to their business, there would only be big business, then we would all pay out the rear for everything, follow me? this is why there is separation, and also separation develops more jobs.


Had to edit here: and they say we don't have them.

[behappy]

Very common in commercial. An engineer does the load calc, duct design, and register specifications.

This is true AND the engineer puts his stamp on the job.

If you install the job, per HIS specs, he owns it.
I have been involved with bad spec's that NO equipment can meet.
That is provable also.

I have never seen this is residential.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Maybe we can do a little bonding here, for the record I am also "for" anything we can do to provide comfort, and use our energy wisely. What I am not for, and I bet thousands of small a/c business owners would agree, is for things to be forced on us. Most of us don't have the resources to do everything to perform all the aspects of the home energy business and a/c installation and service business. Here is a perfect example, I go into a restaurant and ask for crab legs, and they say we don't have them, do I say this is a restaurant isn't it? See not every business carries or performs everything related to their business, it's a resource issue. If every small business was required to carry or perform everything related to their business, there would only be big business, then we would all pay out the rear for everything, follow me? this is why there is separation, and also separation develops more jobs.


Had to edit here: and they say we don't have them.

Agree to a point: There are things I do not do... and things I do. I think each of us has to test our marketplace (which is not the same as the guy down the street's marketplace), to see what works for me.

I think it was this thread, but could be another: I plan to take a home energy audit class and get the cert this fall. NOT to do energy audits... rather to know and understand the issues. Helps my sales process.

[tipsrfine]

Maybe we can do a little bonding here, for the record I am also "for" anything we can do to provide comfort, and use our energy wisely. What I am not for, and I bet thousands of small a/c business owners would agree, is for things to be forced on us. Most of us don't have the resources to do everything to perform all the aspects of the home energy business and a/c installation and service business. Here is a perfect example, I go into a restaurant and ask for crab legs, and they say we don't have them, do I say this is a restaurant isn't it? See not every business carries or performs everything related to their business, it's a resource issue. If every small business was required to carry or perform everything related to their business, there would only be big business, then we would all pay out the rear for everything, follow me? this is why there is separation, and also separation develops more jobs.


Had to edit here: and they say we don't have them.

I get it Mr. Bill. Big problems involved in integrating everything so that they work in harmony. Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.
I don't have a problem with separation, as long as it works in unison with all the other aspects of home improvement. How we accomplish this-I don't know. I think it is good we are talking about it here, 'cause it is being talked about all over the place. One thing I do know, is that things are broke, and even evidence from studies performed by the HVAC industry shows that things are broke. How we fix it-I don't know, but talking about the problem is a good first step.

[udarrell]

Problem there Tips is...

The public is the marketplace. If they WANT high quality/high efficiency installs... they will pay for them. Judging from the folks I talk to (and counter talk at the supply houses: It appears a significant segment of the market cares only about price.

I DO agree that we need stricter licensing, as well as more CE classes.

IMO, it doesn't have to cost them a lot more to achieve a system efficiency improvement.

Most equipment is way oversized with duct systems along with Return Air filter areas that are too small.

When you downsize the equipment it helps to improve the efficiency in many areas, including airflow.

Even those customer's that don't want to pay for a Home Audit there are simple math formula equations using their summer & winter design numbers for their area & the Mid-level of weatherization they have, to illustrate what they would be able to do to downsize with a good safety margin & thereby improve their energy efficiency situation.
Also, using SWING-Temp-spread room stats, etc.

Yes, a lot of them would be afraid to do it.
If they have their equipments' records of performance you can also extrapolate from that data, by also testing output & the efficiency of their present system to reveal its ballpark performance. There are easy ways to do that...

I can't see ever going back with the same oversized equipment on inadequate duct systems that doesn't perform, etc.

Use some of 'Doc' Falke's ideas - Steps to Redesign an Existing HVAC System

[classical]

John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.

[Mr Bill]

Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.

This scenario could happen also if "only" a load calculation was performed, you do a LC and it comes back @3.5 tons, and now Mr. HO goes and does all the things you described, he is now over sized. See why there really is no answer? and as long as some of the smaller businesses don't have the resources, and better yet have no options of calling someone in to perform the Home Energy Audit and LC, were stuck were we are. I am being completely honest with you, in Houston in the summer time, some small a/c businesses run non stop sometimes, performing service, and lining out installations from equipment sold on service calls, I know we do sometimes.
I know all were talking about here is for a good cause, I understand that, but I am in the business to support myself and others and pay my bills. I can't continue to do this if me or my other tech is hung up performing a LC when we have folks dieing in the heat, they will pick up the phone and call another one of the 1000 a/c company's in Houston. So it's a toss up, do we spend our limited time stopping at every job we do or possibly don't sell, to put the service calls on hold? Service is what sells the product, if you have no service calls, you have no product to sell, then whats the point of even keeping the doors open? See this is deeper than just tossing out the idea all this Home Energy and LC stuff should be required. If you have any ideas on how a small business with limited resources can stop for a couple hrs during our summertime high call load, I am all ears. Funny thing is, I have never in 28 years had one complaint of someones a/c or heater not performing as good, if not better than their prior system, when we change it out, how does that happen? does it matter if the customer is happy? mine all have been, go figure.

[ga-hvac-tech]

John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.

THX for the heads up Al; I hold the CO/CA cert from NCI, they are good folks. Will look into it in the late summer to schedule.

Over here in Atlanta; we are in similar shoes to Houston. Windows do not do much good unless the install includes serious reduction of infiltration. Attic insulation is the big bang for the buck, it is amazing how many homes are poorly insulated... even homes built as recently as the early 2000's. Then there is infiltration. One can simply hire a painter-dude to caulk up the exterior of the home... and realize a significant savings. Thankfully most homes over here do have basements; and as such can be base-plate sealed.

I wish foaming the underside of the roof deck was not as expensive as it is... that is one of the better solutions. However the foam guys know they have a great product and sell it as such.

I have subs that do all three things noted above: caulking, windows, blow attics (and once in a while foam the bottom of the roof deck). Customers have to be determined to stay in their homes for a L O N G time to get a payback. And comfort... well many folks just do not perceive it. To them it is just hot or cold... they do not even notice subtle differences.

In the marketplace; one has to understand what is in demand, and sell it to folks. If one has the greatest thing since sliced bread... yet nobody wants a sandwich... well you are not gonna sell much. Just the way markets work.

[Mr Bill]

John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.

Can I get an Amen here?

[ga-hvac-tech]

I get it Mr. Bill. Big problems involved in integrating everything so that they work in harmony. Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.
I don't have a problem with separation, as long as it works in unison with all the other aspects of home improvement. How we accomplish this-I don't know. I think it is good we are talking about it here, 'cause it is being talked about all over the place. One thing I do know, is that things are broke, and even evidence from studies performed by the HVAC industry shows that things are broke. How we fix it-I don't know, but talking about the problem is a good first step.

This scenario could happen also if "only" a load calculation was performed, you do a LC and it comes back @3.5 tons, and now Mr. HO goes and does all the things you described, he is now over sized. See why there really is no answer? and as long as some of the smaller businesses don't have the resources, and better yet have no options of calling someone in to perform the Home Energy Audit and LC, were stuck were we are. I am being completely honest with you, in Houston in the summer time, some small a/c businesses run non stop sometimes, performing service, and lining out installations from equipment sold on service calls, I know we do sometimes.
I know all were talking about here is for a good cause, I understand that, but I am in the business to support myself and others and pay my bills. I can't continue to do this if me or my other tech is hung up performing a LC when we have folks dieing in the heat, they will pick up the phone and call another one of the 1000 a/c company's in Houston. So it's a toss up, do we spend our limited time stopping at every job we do or possibly don't sell, to put the service calls on hold? Service is what sells the product, if you have no service calls, you have no product to sell, then whats the point of even keeping the doors open? See this is deeper than just tossing out the idea all this Home Energy and LC stuff should be required. If you have any ideas on how a small business with limited resources can stop for a couple hrs during our summertime high call load, I am all ears. Funny thing is, I have never in 28 years had one complaint of someones a/c or heater not performing as good, if not better than their prior system, when we change it out, how does that happen? does it matter if the customer is happy? mine all have been, go figure.

IMO both of you guys have valid points.

The reason I am going to get the home energy audit cert this fall is so I can address this stuff on a sales call. I have had limited luck already explaining this to folks and suggesting they get an energy audit. The ones that did; well we planned a system that would work with the repairs that were yet to be done... they bought it. Results after the envelope improvements were done, along with the new system, were/are impressive.

I know I will get flamed for this: One does not need a full LC to estimate some things about equipment size... however if one wants really good room to room air distribution... then one probably should do one.

Time to get some ZZZ's; I am in a home show the next 3 days... can you say leads and leads and leads.... <grin>

[Mr Bill]

IMO both of you guys have valid points.

The reason I am going to get the home energy audit cert this fall is so I can address this stuff on a sales call..

John, ANYTHING you can do to increase you knowledge of this business is a plus in my world. If I was paid for all my knowledge, and was able to totally utilize it on every call and get paid for it, I would now be on my own Island in the Pacific drinking a margarita, with a few Island girls. As Al said, some folks don't care to reinvent the wheel, they just want to be cool in summer and warm in the winter, after all isn't it the customers money and ain't they the boss? Soon we a/c guys will seem like new car salesman to some folks, offering all the bells and whistles, when all they asked for was a plain Jane 4 door Chevy sedan. If there was an answer that fit everyone, everyone would be doing it, so there must not be an answer that everyone can live with.