Pool People.........

[DeltaT]

What are they good for?

I think that was a song in the 60's. Anyway ran across this today on one of my indoor pool heat pump people. Pump was just repaced by the pool guy. Never knew this kind of fitting existed.

I'm made my share of money repiping the pool people's piping, especially on the pumps.

It's proper and necessary to run a length of discharge pipe at least 3 times the size of the discharge opening before a bend is made. This allows the water to someone stabalized before causing it to go through a turn.

I've repiped so many systems that were piped this way and have reduced the amp draw of the pumps motors as well as made the heat exchange in the heat exchanger much more productive.

[2sac]

What are they good for?


I'm made my share of money repiping the pool people's piping, especially on the pumps.

Say that 10 times fast

[craig1]

PVC is dangerous in untrained hands. It makes anyone feel like they can be a plumber
Last week I re-piped this lobster tank in a supermarket

I suspect there were more linear feet of fittings than pipe.
Unfortunately I don't have any after pictures.
sorry the pics are sideways


Attachment 252581
These pipes were connected to the wrong ports on the filter, they needed to be switched.


Attachment 252591
Two of these fitting had NO GLUE and somehow stayed together for 15 years until I touched them and then immediately fell appart

[gravity]

holy .... wtf?!

[tunnel_rat]

PVC. What is it good for.....absolutly nothing....hey say it again......

[jeremy4876]

PVC is dangerous in untrained hands. It makes anyone feel like they can be a plumber
Last week I re-piped this lobster tank in a supermarket

I suspect there were more linear feet of fittings than pipe.
Unfortunately I don't have any after pictures.
sorry the pics are sideways


Attachment 252581
These pipes were connected to the wrong ports on the filter, they needed to be switched.


Attachment 252591
Two of these fitting had NO GLUE and somehow stayed together for 15 years until I touched them and then immediately fell appart

Looking at all the elbows and weird angles in the piping in the second pic made me dizzy .....

[DeltaT]

Craig
Someone has stock in PVC fittings from the look of your set up.

Take a look at my first pump picture and you will not see any glue or cleaner on the first two joints. I can't see how the joints are kept together. I decided not to mess with it as I'm not the one who installed the piping by the pool pump people presently presented PVC piping pictures.

[icesailor]

I always use clear cleaner and clear cement. You can always tell if the pipe and fittings are cleaned. The writing doesn't go into the socket.

Those are mostly drainage DWV fittings, but Sch 40 pressure rated fittings are what should be used.

[craig1]

I always use clear cleaner and clear cement. You can always tell if the pipe and fittings are cleaned. The writing doesn't go into the socket.

primer and cleaner are chemically different. cleaner should not be substituted for primer. Around here if the inspectors don't see the purple you don't pass the inspection.


Usually you don't need to use cleaner, but its good to have a can of it around for when you spill the primer and have to get the stains out of the floor

[icesailor]

I use Rectorseal "Big Bill" or "Pistol Pete". One is cement, the other is cleaner. As far as I know, there has never been anything in the Massachusetts Plumbing Code that requires the use of dyed primer/cleaner. Just that it must be cleaned. Charlotte says that it must be cleaned. Any AHJ/inspector that can't tell if pipe and fittings are cleaned, isn't looking. I can tell at a glance if it has beem cleaned with clear P/C. Especially if the manufacturers information line is missing as it comes out of the socket. The P/C is supposed to clean the hard surface on the pipe and fitting that form when it comes out of the mold. The P/C cleaner is to remove the hard surface and clean it off. It is supposed to so soften the pipe and fitting so that the cement can further soften the pipe and fitting for a proper fusion weld.

I was in Florida and had to fix some broken PVC irrigation pipes for someone. I went to HD and bought some cement and cleaner. All they had was the purple stuff. When I tried to clean the pipe and fittings, it would set up immediately and i couldn't wipe it off with a clean rag. It stayed on the pipe. The cement didn't take it off. IMO, it ends up interferring with the chemical solvent weld. But that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. I also deburr the pipe so it doesn't act like a squegee and wipe the cement out of the fitting, causing a leak. A common problem for those that don't clean and de-burr.

Look on Charlottes Web Site. Where they also tell you not to use Sch.40 PVC DWV 1140 pipe and fittings on anything other than drain, waste and vents or Potable Water only and not over 140 degrees. Absolutely nothing about venting heat making appliances.

[kaptnkirk]

If the inspector dosen't see purple in North Carolina....FAIL

[JIB]

I've repiped so many systems that were piped this way and have reduced the amp draw of the pumps motors as well as made the heat exchange in the heat exchanger much more productive.

Good for you. I'm a mechanical engineer and I have seen some amazingly bad piping over the years. Now I know where I can post that stuff.

[icesailor]

Another stupid rule for lazy inspectors. All that purple stains on white pipes and fittings make it look like hackaroos were turned loose on the piping, no matter how straight it looks.

Makes me again realize how grateful I am to be licensed and work in Massachusetts where we don't have a lot of these CS regulatiions. We have a "Uniform Code" that means that the same code regs are the same in Pittsfield as they are on Nantucket. Inspectors are required to get 12 hours of continuing ed per year and we common folks have to take 6 hours per year of we can't renew our licenses.

[hearthman]

Some clarification is due here:

The IRC does not specifically approve of PVC or any kind of plastic venting. The code recognizes listed venting, which means listed to UL 1738, such as AL29-4c stainless steel or per mfrs. instructions. Now, most mfrs simply say you can use Sch 40 pvc. They don't get into specifics of joining, support, etc. So, where do these regs. for purple primer come from? Local ordinances. The inspectors want to CYA. This became more of an issue in the wake of the Lofgren carbon monoxide case in Aspen, CO where PVC was not properly joined.

FYI, Charlotte pipe DOES require primer on Sch 40 PVC. Download the installation instruction and see page 89. The primer softens the plastic for a better, more uniform bond.

As for the 'ugly' stains, that's a reflection of workmanship. I've posted on this before but here's the trick: wrap the pipe with blue painter's tape revealing a 1/8"-1/4" uniform band. Prime to the tape, apply cement, join and pull the tape. You get a pretty purple ring everytime and only takes an extra few seconds.

If something goes wrong and you are called in, you'd better be following the mfrs instructions on joining.

Back to the 'approval' issue for venting: None of the major mfrs. have 'approved' their pipe for combustion venting. There is no ASTM std. to test their pipe to for venting. This is a major reason we have not been able to agree on a new listing std. on the UL Standards Technical Panel the way the Canadians have with their S636 listing. We see too many problems with their listing.

With a max. operating temp. of 140F, you'be do well to perform combustion analysis to ensure it is not too hot for the venting. BTW, I called Fernco and they say the same as Charlotte pipe: 140F max continuous and not approved for venting even though their couplings are used in this application and even sold to Bradford White for their TTW water heaters.

[icesailor]

You can't fix it (stupid) and you can't make installers do it properly. I've seen PVC venting on direct vent water heaters that were a lovely shade of brown. Meaning that the chorides have been leaching out of the pipe and fittings. The whitest part of the pipe and fittings were where the PVC cement was on the pipe.

That's a lot of work to tape the pipe so you can keep the purple stain off the pipe. Then, to remove it. Time = Money. If you clean pipe with clear cleaner and wipe it off with a clean rag, you will be able to tell if the job was cleaned by the fact that there will be missing colored manufacturers mark on a large amount of fittings that are visable where the line is facing the observer. Then, close nipples shouldn't have any line. Most of the pool piping I see where I work isn't cleaned, cut off straight or de-burred. And cut off with a 6 Pt sawzall blade. How do you accurately measure pipe that is cut off crooked?

We're talking work that would be proudly shown on "The Wall Of Fame". Not something that someone saw that would be a good candidate for the "Wall Of Shame. I like to think my work could be found on the Wall Of Fame".

The case you mention in Colorado. I'll bet that threre was no mention of deburring the pipe so the pipe doesn't wipe the cement out of the socket like a windshield wiper does on a car in the rain. When PVC was first introduced in Massachusetts in the 60's, the instructions required square cuts and deburring. I've pulled apart leakers that were none of the above and not cleaned. Then, crooked cuts that popped back out so there was only 1/4" inserted on the short side.

I guess it comes under the topic of good installers have to suffer from the shoddy practices of a few.

Like George The Firedragon says, "You can't fix stupid".

[hearthman]

icesailor, you obviously have not tried my tape method because it takes less time to do that it does to type.

As for using clear vs. purple, if the code requires it then it is LAW. Otherwise, yes, you can use clear PRIMER--not just cleaner.


Can you provide a link to your theory on the chlorides 'leaching' out of the pvc?
TIA,

[icesailor]

There is no requirement in Massachusetts CMR 240 that says that you "Shall use" colored primer/cleaner. Some local inspectors may request it but on appeal, they would be over ruled.

Rectorseal "Big Bill" and "Pistol Pete" bith come with dauber brushes in the can. Convenient for spreading cleaner in the pipe and inside the fittings. To be quickly wiped off with a clean rag.

That sure is a big PITA to go through to do something that isn't necessary.

Those that can, do. Those that can't become teachers or building inspectors. For them, its payback time.

[craig1]

That's a lot of work to tape the pipe so you can keep the purple stain off the pipe. Then, to remove it. Time = Money. If you clean pipe with clear cleaner and wipe it off with a clean rag, you will be able to tell if the job was cleaned

If you're not sniffing the primer before using it, it shouldn't be too hard to apply it neatly.

Also you are not supposed to wipe off the primer. The solvent should be applied while the primer is still wet

[icesailor]

Am I on trial here?

I know what it says on the can. I know what it said on the can in the 1960's Do you?

I clean the pipe and fittings. I clean it off with a rag, I clean it off until any stains or any other things are off it. I never have leaks. I also chamfer the pipe. It doesn't tell you to do that anymore. I see a lot of fittings that haven't seen anything but cement. When I have used purple primer, the glaze is still on the pipe when I wipe it off.

You do it your way and I'll do it mine. If I start getting leaks, I'll figure it out and make changes.

Its like using Teflon Tape on fuel oil lines. Pump manufacturers lobbied AHJ;s to ban it. I recently re-piped two leaking Shutts oil tanks. Some fittings leaked badly when the tanks were filled. They used some form of blue loc thread sealer. It took two, 3' pipe wrenches to get the leaking fittings apart. The blue stuff was so hard that I couldn't get it off with a utility knife. I repiped it all with Blue Monster Teflon tape and Rectorseal #5 and tightened it with a 18" wrench mostly. No leaks. Then, there's the fuel pumps. If the pump manufacturer finds any sign of Teflon tape in the pump, it voids their warranty. Really? How could it get past the pump strainer? Rectorseal #5 is impervious to oil AND PVC cleaner. Gedt it on your clothes and it is there for life. Which I use exclusively to clean oil burner nozzle asseemblies. I NEVER get leaks on oil fittings when I use Teflon Tape. If I get a leak on a Suntec AV pump, they cost me $50.00. If I charge $100.00 per hour, it costs me $100.00 to go fix a leak. And I've never had a new pump fail. If I bother to try to get credit, its a wash. I just throw in another one anyway.