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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mixing oil and fire with a big spoon.
    Posts
    4,260
    Quote Originally Posted by spinning wheel View Post
    I am sure that a Trane service person started the chiller and performed a commisioning report....This is a Trane problem as the sales guy sold them this chiller and they knew where it was going...."
    not necessarily. i have run into many jobs where i spoke with the salesman and he did not know where it was going or what it is going to do. often times (when they are lucky) they get a decent set of conditions. when they aren't, they get a set of conditions like: 75 tons of cooling, no heat, economizer...need it in 4 weeks.

    that is the truth...it may be wrong to do it that way...but this is how it is done many times. as for a Trane service tech doing the start up...doesn't always happen and it is not required by trane for this model in order to get the warranty.
    my 1st time jumping out of a plane...http://youtu.be/Kv38G0MHsGo

  2. #15
    I would like to thank everyone for help.A trane tech started up the unit and told the limits.He just adviced to warm the water but said there should be no problem with this condenser water.They installad an electronic card which controls the regulating valve but it only works when system differantial pressure is under the limits otherwise it is full open.We have been using direct river water since years fot the oher chillers and also heat exchanger and had no problem so far as we have a good filtration.

    I already called the Trane tech.When start up he did not say you should warm the water but now says you should warm the water.When I ask him that all the conditions are ok,gas pump working-system differantial pressure is not under limits-the check valve is ok(We hope so because the machine is new) what the reason is for oil loss problem I could not receive a good answer he just said warm the water and if you still have this problem we will come again and check the other things.But I dont want to spend money for it before I am sure that the problem is cold condenser water.

    Thanks to everyone who wants to help and also special thanks to PAT A/C friend.I will convert the units tomorrow and write here

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    A land down under
    Posts
    306
    Your entering condenser water is below minimum (refer to the bulletin on CW control posted in the previous post) but you also have an issue with your flows as you have 4K delta on youe evap (design 5K) and only 1K delta on your condenser (design 5 K). I suspect you are way down on evap flow by your percentage RLA of 42% and no that ain't equipment waranty.

    Actual
    Evap entering water 1.2C
    Evap leaving temp -2.8C
    Condenser entering water 12C
    Condenser leaving water 13C

    Design
    Evap. entering temp 2 C
    Evap leaving temp -3 C
    Condenser ent. temp 25 C
    Condenser leaving temp 30 C
    Last edited by Screwit; 03-18-2012 at 03:16 AM.
    Necessity is the mother of invention

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    A land down under
    Posts
    306
    And converted for the metrically challenged......

    We have Trane RTHD in our plant which is installed 2 months ago. We are having oil loss at compressor problem. We are using directly river water in condenser and we have a variable cooling need conditions. The river water temperature is 11-13 C (52-55.4 F) in this winter. Although head pressure,oil pressure,refrigerant luquid level is OK we sometimes face oil loss problem

    Evap entering water 1.2C (34.2 F)
    Evap leaving temp -2.8C (27 F)
    Condenser entering water 12C (53.6 F)
    Condenser leaving water 13C (55.4 F)

    Evap refrigerant pressure 136 (20 psig)
    Condenser ref. pressure 400 (58 psig)

    Evap app. temp : 3-4 C (3.2 to 7.2 F)
    Condenser app. temp: 1-2C (1.8 to 3.6 F)
    Load: %42

    Chiller works in above conditions about 75-80 minutes.Then as we dont have cooling need so much it goes to;
    Evap entering water -1.7C (29 F)
    Evap leaving temp -3C (26.6 F)
    Condenser entering water 12C (53.6 F)
    Condenser leaving water 12.5C (54.5 F)

    Evap refrigerant pressure 128 (18.5 psig)
    Condenser ref. pressure 360 (52 psig)

    Evap app. temp : 2 C (3.6 F)
    Condenser app. temp: 0.8C (1.4 F)
    Load: %26

    We have a condenser regulating valve in the outlet of condenser and works when the head pressure is under limits(1,7 bar 24 psid)).The data sheet says;

    Evap. entering temp 2 C (35.6 F)
    Evap leaving temp -3 C (26.6 F)

    Condenser ent. temp 25 C (77 F)
    Condenser leaving temp 30 C (86 F)

    But it also says you can use cold water minimum 12.5C (54.5 F) and as far as I know cold water means lower power suction.
    Necessity is the mother of invention

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,016
    Define filtration , A screen with 6" holes in it to remove large fish , dead bodies , skunks, beavers and large fish is a filter and could be described as good filtration....why ...because it works to remove those objects that are too big to pass through it .
    When I said water treatment I was meaning chemical treatment to reduce the corrosive qualities and biological nasties , if present in the water being used .

    Your condenser water is to cold and just because the "Trane tech" installed the card doesnt mean he set the parameters up properly ??
    I have also posted the warning right out of the IOM about untreated water .
    This is the page that no one ever reads ...


    CAUTION
    Proper Water Treatment!
    The use of untreated or improperly treated water in a RTHD may
    result in scaling, erosion, corrosion, algae or slime. It is
    recommended that the services of a qualified water treatment
    specialist be engaged to determine what water treatment, if any,
    is required. The Trane Company assumes no responsibility for
    equipment failures which result from untreated or improperly
    treated water, or saline or brackish water.
    Using untreated or improperly treated water in these units may result in inefficient
    operation and possible tube damage. Consult a qualified water treatment
    specialist to determine whether treatment is needed.
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    La.
    Posts
    279
    That is for a stock unit with copper tubes and steel shells. I would hope that the chiller was ordered for marine conditions CuNi or titanium. This is what usually tips off the sales guy that this is a special chiller. Just because you are using raw water, the manufacturer cannot wash his hands of the chiller unless the customer did not specify thier intentions. Raw water does not cause oil loss; poor operation and maintenance cause oil loss and breakdowns.
    Ships don't have cooling towers, I promise you that; and somehow they still work, from the equator to the poles.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas ,Texas
    Posts
    3,702
    Quote Originally Posted by R123 View Post
    Why don't you convert all the temps to F and pressures to PSI for the metrically challenged.
    Just google for a kpa to psi converter .
    UA 100

    It takes three people to do anything around here. Two do the work, one explains to the crowd of people who showed up when they seen smoke and flames.

  8. #21
    Dear Healey Nut, I dont say our filtretion is the best,my first problem is to learn whether I should warm the condenser water or not and to learn if the main reason of oill los is another thing.If you think the problem is filtration then OK.

    I thought the regulating valve is OK when the head pressure is lower than limits.Do you think that it should reduce the water flow continiusly?

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    The Hot South
    Posts
    1,297
    Did anybody add oil to the system as a result of a loss of oil trip????

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,016
    Quote Originally Posted by R123 View Post
    Did anybody add oil to the system as a result of a loss of oil trip????
    I sure hope not !!!!
    This chiller is two months old , it cost a lot of money to buy and install . You need to call Trane and be sure that the tech that you get is familiar with the RTHD and how to check and set up the condenser water control properly
    The tech must also know how to perform oil recovery and get the chiller going WITHOUT ADDING OIL !!!!!!! Adding oil will make only the situation worse .
    There is also a specific test to check if the gas pump is working correctly , has this test been performed , just because the solenoids are sequencing doesnt mean its working .

    It sounds to me like your trying to be cheap and not involve the services of a qualified service tech ..if this is the case then you better place the order now for a new compressor now ..
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    A land down under
    Posts
    306
    And check your flows as by the Delta T values heat in (Evap 80% of Design Delta) does not balance with heat out (Cond 20% of Design Delta), I suspect you are are way down on evap flow rate which could also be the cause of your oil loss. If you post your discharge s/heat in the log readings this may help determine.
    Necessity is the mother of invention

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,016
    And what % of glycol are you running and what type,, ethylene or ....please dont say propylene !!!!!!!!
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  13. #26
    If there isn't any oil on the floor don't add any to the chiller! If you do add it make sure you take it back out.

    I assume the river water stays at a fairly constant temperature. If the chiller had tripped off for any length of time due to cold condenser water, the chilled water will have probably gotten warmer than condenser water. If this is the case the only way you're going to get this thing running is by jumping out the condenser water flow switch, and closing the condenser water valve until you get a good system differential pressure.

    53.6 F(12 C) condenser water is way way way too cold for this machine. Hell it's too cold for a centrifugal. Even with a condenser water modulating valve I think it's too cold. But if you set up the modulating valve properly it may work, as long as the chilled water temp doesn't get higher than your condenser water temp.

    Ideally you would want a condenser water bypass to recirculate the leaving condenser water back into the inlet side. This gets the water nice and toasty, the way screw chillers like it.

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