410a vs R-22

[bzzline]

I would go with R-22. It may be because of good thinking or the higher ambients here but there are just not that many r-410 systems in this area.
I belive r-22 will be here long after r-410


[Edited by bzzline on 05-20-2006 at 07:00 AM]

[jrbenny]

Millions if not billions of dollars have been spent on R and D, retooling, and marketing of R410a products. There's no chance in hell that R410a is not the refrigerant for the next 20 years or longer. R22 will NEVER be in OEM equipment after 2010. Drop-ins will not be authorized by OEM because it will affect replacement sales.

With the amount of R and D by all of the OEM, why would you even suggest that R410a is dangerous? I can't even fathom why you'd even suggest such ludicrous crap.

I find it hard to believe that you are a professional in this trade with the completely uneducated comments that you continue to post on the message boards.

I fully realize that this community exists to share information and learn from one another, but the posts that you have been making in the public forums are rather scary. Your advice to homeowners is usually whacked to a point that is quite disturbing.

The homeowners that post here are already confused enough without the misinformation that you are feeding them. Your time here would be better served reading and gathering some actual HVAC knowledge.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by jrbenny
Millions if not billions of dollars have been spent on R and D, retooling, and marketing of R410a products. There's no chance in hell that R410a is not the refrigerant for the next 20 years or longer. R22 will NEVER be in OEM equipment after 2010. Drop-ins will not be authorized by OEM because it will affect replacement sales.

With the amount of R and D by all of the OEM, why would you even suggest that R410a is dangerous? I can't even fathom why you'd even suggest such ludicrous crap.

I find it hard to believe that you are a professional in this trade with the completely uneducated comments that you continue to post on the message boards.

I fully realize that this community exists to share information and learn from one another, but the posts that you have been making in the public forums are rather scary. Your advice to homeowners is usually whacked to a point that is quite disturbing.

The homeowners that post here are already confused enough without the misinformation that you are feeding them. Your time here would be better served reading and gathering some actual HVAC knowledge.

You are correct. Some here should be asking questions and paying attention when they are busy posting advice that they are not qualified to give.

[xv80satisfiedcust]

novahomeowner,

My comments on the "off topic" talk.

Pro 410:

Basically, homeowners like myself who just bought R22 are taking a risk. If our system leaks after R22 becomes expensive, at a minimum, we would have a less efficient drop in installed. One Trane dealer told me if the R22 compressor fails after 2010, parts availability is not guaranteed. My current indoor coil and linesets will not be compatible with a 410 outdoor unit. If an R22 compressor was not available, I would be starting all over and have to buy entire indoor/outdoor units and lineset.


Pro R22:

On choosing how to spend on "upgrades", I choose higher SEER instead of 410. We have all read about the hacks, the wall of shame, and install problems. I didn't interview the installer and ask how well they were trained on 410. I chose something that the HVAC industry is well trained on. I was not interested in higher pressure, higher price etc etc...

In the end, I saw it as "Choose the brand, AND THE REFRIGERANT that your contractor feels most comfortable with". If my contractor told me the tech had never touched R22, I would have a 410 system. I'll be getting a 410 system anywhere around 2016 to 2024 (unless I move first).

Do not interpret my comments as ignoring the hard work and diligence of all the HVAC companies and techs who have invested and trained on 410. I won't even ask the hypothetical question of "If R22 was NOT being phased out, which refrigerant would the pro's choose". I am hoping my system will not have a leak.

[NormChris]

At this point I would be more concerned with the quality of the installation than I would be with the choice of refrigerants.

[Special Ed]

Originally posted by bzzline
I would go with R-22. It may be because of good thinking or the higher ambients here but there are just not that many r-410 systems in this area.
I belive r-22 will be here long after r-410


[Edited by bzzline on 05-20-2006 at 07:00 AM]

Another myth perpetuated by an A/C repair hack who obviously has no idea what he's doing. Nor should his advice be trusted. Ignorant people (e.g., bzzline) should never be listened to.

Nova, there should be absolutely no difference in price between R-22 systems & R-410a systems because the wholesale price is the same for both. Go with R-410a, you'll be happy you did, especially in about 4 years.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by Special Ed

Originally posted by bzzline
I would go with R-22. It may be because of good thinking or the higher ambients here but there are just not that many r-410 systems in this area.
I belive r-22 will be here long after r-410


[Edited by bzzline on 05-20-2006 at 07:00 AM]

Another myth perpetuated by an A/C repair hack who obviously has no idea what he's doing. Nor should his advice be trusted. Ignorant people (e.g., bzzline) should never be listened to.

Nova, there should be absolutely no difference in price between R-22 systems & R-410a systems because the wholesale price is the same for both. Go with R-410a, you'll be happy you did, especially in about 4 years.

Maybe in your brand their the same price, but not in all.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by bzzline
I would go with R-22. It may be because of good thinking or the higher ambients here but there are just not that many r-410 systems in this area.
I belive r-22 will be here long after r-410


[Edited by bzzline on 05-20-2006 at 07:00 AM]

Maybe its because your area has alot of people like you, that haven't gone to any courses to learn abouot r410a, making up things about it, and excuses not to learn about it.

[perel]

Originally posted by Special Ed
Another myth perpetuated by an A/C repair hack who obviously has no idea what he's doing. Nor should his advice be trusted. Ignorant people (e.g., bzzline) should never be listened to.

I was wondering about that. Admittedly, "Dave's Appliance Repair" doesn't sound like a shop that would be exposed to 410a much yet. Aren't most window shakers, home fridges, etc still R-22, except for the ones that have gone to 134a?

[NormChris]

Originally posted by perel

Originally posted by Special Ed
Another myth perpetuated by an A/C repair hack who obviously has no idea what he's doing. Nor should his advice be trusted. Ignorant people (e.g., bzzline) should never be listened to.

I was wondering about that. Admittedly, "Dave's Appliance Repair" doesn't sound like a shop that would be exposed to 410a much yet. Aren't most window shakers, home fridges, etc still R-22, except for the ones that have gone to 134a?

Domestic refrigerators were never R-22. They were R-12 and now R-134A.

When r-12 first came out most technicians were as afraid of that just as some here are afraid of R-410A.

[perel]

Thanks for the correction. Not to go too far afield, but how come fridges and cars went straight to 134a and window ACs stayed on R-22?

[bzzline]

beenthere
Here is a bristol compressors # H70C343ABK its for R-407 (a replacement refrigerent for R-22) with its lower pressure and better lubrication propertys than R-410 how about we use them compressors for r-22

[bzzline]

xv80satisfiedcust

You are not taking a risk with R-22 there are many systems that have use this refrigerent for years. Check with your compressor manufactures like Copland or Bristol and you will see the new R-407 (R-22 like pressure) rated compressor for residental systems.

[bzzline]

jrbenny

R-410 Sale's is the key word here. Some folks are trying to put the small guy out of business with high priced refrigerants and the need to purches unnecessary high pressure equipment.
These 13 SEER and higher SEER R-22 or R-410 units have for the last ten years have always been on the cutting edge that like a race car need attention and fine tuning and as SEER increases so do cost replacement parts.
What is the life of a R-410 system with VS motors and controls

[beenthere]

Originally posted by bzzline
beenthere
Here is a bristol compressors # H70C343ABK its for R-407 (a replacement refrigerent for R-22) with its lower pressure and better lubrication propertys than R-410 how about we use them compressors for r-22

Its a 50 hertz compressor.

So your going to put a 50hertz compressor in a house with an electrical service of 60 hertz?

Where do you get better lubrication properties then an r410a compressor??

[beenthere]

Read this conversion process, do you want do this just convert a system over to 407c and still not have a happy customer?

http://www.bbc-consultancy.com/Guide...lacing_R22.pdf


8% capacity loss, alot of your customers will thank you for that when it gets to design outdoor temp and they can't keep their house cool.


If you spent the same effort in learning about 410a that you are spending trying not use it, you would see how lame it soounds trying to come up with ways to avoid 410a.

[iamrichard]

I lean towards R410A for a variety of reasons.

See:

http://www.highperformancehvac.com/a...ditioning.html

and read the article titled Factors and Considerations.

Richard

[bzzline]

Originally posted by beenthere

Originally posted by bzzline
beenthere
Here is a bristol compressors # H70C343ABK its for R-407 (a replacement refrigerent for R-22) with its lower pressure and better lubrication propertys than R-410 how about we use them compressors for r-22

Its a 50 hertz compressor.

So your going to put a 50hertz compressor in a house with an electrical service of 60 hertz?

Where do you get better lubrication properties then an r410a compressor??

-What is wrong with 50hz? Alot of compressor's in use have this spec?

-The upgrade to this HFC refrigerent is no different than any other HFC refrigerent (replacement of the compressor will remove 95% of the oil in most systems)

on the Carrier web sight you will find r-410 rated for residentiai and Lt commercial when R-407 (R-22 like pressure)is used for commercial equipment.I think it was on the copland compressor sight I read about the POE properties with r-410 and r-407 but I cannot find it

[Edited by bzzline on 05-21-2006 at 02:20 PM]

[bzzline]

Originally posted by iamrichard
I lean towards R410A for a variety of reasons.

See:

http://www.highperformancehvac.com/a...ditioning.html

and read the article titled Factors and Considerations.

Richard

This is artical is misleading I have a 15 year old 12seer system and so do a lot of other people. You cannot tell someone they will save $40.00 a month just because they have a new 13 Seer system.

[iamrichard]

You wrote: This is artical is misleading I have a 15 year old 12seer system and so do a lot of other people. You cannot tell someone they will save $40.00 a month just because they have a new 13 Seer system.


How many people have 15 year old 12 SEER systems? Be honest with yourself now. A majority of residential systems that I've seen are lucky if they are getting 8 SEER so there is nothing artificial or misleading about the article unless you have a 12 SEER system that was installed 15 or 20 years ago and many do not. All relatively speaking of course. When I wrote that article I tried to find the exact reference to the article from the national magazine but it was a few years ago and couldn't find it. I wanted to give credit where credit was due.

Now, in the real world, I have personally observed before and after electric bills where 410A beat R-22 with matched systems for system rating for rating tonnage for tonnage and saved the homeowner more than $40 per month through Summer or Winter.

Richard
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Licensed HVAC Master
http://highperformancehvac.com