Originally Posted by hvacvegas
On second thought. It may be correct.
I checked the literature via lochinvar, and it shows that your inlet/outlet is wrong.
BUT, I just thought back to the last one I did, and the internals are completely different than whats in the I/O manual.
I mean, completely different.
Take a picture of the bottom of the boiler.
"Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."
"Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."
"Just get it done son."
Think I figured it out
I think I just found the answer to my own question and it is right there when I take the cover off the boiler written in red print which explains why I was having no issues when I had the setpoints at 170*, but got some lockouts at 180* (both with 10* offsets. It just makes sense to me now that my wall mount boiler has lower ARHL and MRHL temps than the same boiler that is a floor mount version. The defaults for SH1 and 2 were set at 180*, which is the maximum, and my installer kept it there since we have copper fin baseboards. I would routinely see the boiler initially fire up to the low 190's on very cold days without a lockout, and that would be a non issue with the floor mount models, but with the wall mount model such as mine, the MRHL is a full 10* lower than that of the floor mount model, which would explain why it would lockout the few times it did on those cold nights. When it was set to 170* I never had a problem with a lockout or comfort either. It just makes sense to me now, but I have to question why they lowered the ARHL and MRHL temps on the wall mount models.
I attached a couple of pics as well. The wall is only 4 1/2 feet wide but that's where I wanted it mounted.
(Don't mind the speaker wires running next to the condensate neutralizer)
That's always been an issue with diy installs, whether boiler or forced air/a/c. They get installed, gas bill goes down and it's called a success.
If the appliance was properly installed, instead of saving, for instance 25%, a homeowner could save 40% or more. With the system you have now, you are not even close to approaching what that boiler could do or the efficencies (sp?) you'd see.
I am no longer surprised that no one else is telling you that system is wrong. It makes me more sad than anything.
The system was installed by the most reputable family owned company in my county and they have been in business for over 3 decades, with 3 generations of family employed there. They literally have over a thousand installations. They will only install Lennox, Buderus, or Lochinvar condensing boilers.
I had 6 total estimates on the job, all very well known contractors in my county, and one of the salesmen from the lager company actually told me if I wasn't going to use his company, then I should definately go with the company I ultimately used, and that if he wasn't working for his current company and needed a boiler installed at his house, he would have the company I used install it for him.
Again, I went from an 81% (79% tested cast iron boiler) with a Beckett Heat Manager on it to this one and it is doing what they said it would, which is saving me lots of gas and money over time. It was not a DIY install by any means, but you haven't explained what you see as wrong yet. Please elaborate in plain English for me what you see wrong besides it being in a tight space and a bit cramped. I am not educated in this field so please explain as you would to a potential customer and not in a condescending or belittling manner. Thanks, Vinny.
I'm sorry if you felt my tone was belittling or condescneding, it was not meant to be. My apologies to you.
This is not a diy site, so no detailed info from me.
You asked for advice and I gave it. It looks diy. There is nothing about it that tells me who installed it had a clue as to the proper installation of a high efficiency boiler. Thirty years of experience or not, it is a poor installation that is being covered up by making guesses at the controls.
This October, I'll have thirty years in the field myself. I don't claim to know it all, but I do know high efficiency boilers, especially the Knight. I also know hacked installations. I get calls on them every week, both from frustrated homeowners who hired incompetant companies or diyers looking for free advice.
I'll say it again, what is wrong is basic hydronics. If someone looks at that and says it's OK, there's nothing I'm going to say that will convince them otherwise. I'm sure you did due diligance in your research. If the install was done right, there would be no need to tweak the controls.
Maybe one of my eloquent cohorts on this sit will be`along who is better than I am at expressing themselves.
Don't worry I have a very thick skin, there is little someone can say to me to get my goat.... but it's like going to a mechanic with a car that has some engine hesitation, and the mechanic says the whole car needs to be broken down to the subframe and rebuilt, when it possibly only a needed a tuneup or the throttle body needed some cleaning or adjusting, and says so without pinpointing exactly what needs to be done to get it back to 100%.
Basic hydronics you mention, but exactly what do you see that I may bring to the attention of my installer? I realize it is not a DIY site, and I don't plan on changing things myself except some minor setpoint adjustments.
Got my answer from Lochinvar
I just confirmed it with Lochinvar tech support myself. I explained what I have been experiencing and how it worked fine at 170* but locked out at times when it was at 180* and he said it has something to to with the Delta T and when a call for heat on any particular zone is satisfied, they noticed that the temperature sometimes instantly jumps up a bit, setting off the MRHL, and more so in the wall mount units like mine because of the lower hi limit as opposed to the higher hi limit in floor mount version. He told me to adjust the setpoint to 170 or even try lower (like I have been trying) and that will definately eliminate any future lockouts. Just that 10* difference makes all the difference. I expressied that I was concerned with efficiency and comfort, but he assured me it will make absolutely no difference in either by making the adjustment, and I could go even lower on the setpoints if I wish.
I still can't figure why the hi limits are lower in the wall mount versions as opposed to their floor mount cousins.
Thank you all for the input, I believe I got my answer now.
Stay safe, Vinny.
Originally Posted by Vinnyg
What I just realized and I believe should have been mentioned in my previous post regarding usage/savings is that the above mentioned numbers also include the daily use of a gas oven, gas dryer, and natural gas barbecue (up until December) along with the periodic use of the 30,000 BTU garage heater as well.
Those figures represent the total amount of gas used in the home during those respective time periods, not just the heating portion.
From Sept 2010 to Feb 2011 inclusive your area had 3120 heating degree days
Originally Posted by Vinnyg
From Sept 2011 to Feb 2012 inclusive your area had 2545 heating degree days
So the heating season your basing your savings on was much colder then this year. It had 575 more heating degree days.
While your new boiler is probably saving you some money on your heating bill. Its not anywhere near what you think, or are posting. Its just been that much warmer. Almost 19% fewer heating degree days will tend to lower people's heating bill by a large amount.
Thanks for the reply and I do understand that it has been ridiculously warm this winter, and it is difficult to realistically gauge the savings from an apples to apples standpoint. What I will try to do is look over some bills from the previous year if I still have them as my utility company's website doesn't go back that far.
What I can see is that towards the end of summer and early fall where there is no heating required, there is still a decent savings of gas at which time the boiler was just used for hot water production, which I don't believe was much affected by the outside weather. It was installed late August, and in September, CCF usage dropped by 10 and in October CCF usage dropped by 13, all with the same indirect and without the heat being turned on. Again those numbers include a stove, gas dryer, and natural gas barbecue mixed in, so it is difficult to really gauge which portion of total gas usage was for hot water heating, but I can definately say that there was a substantial gas savings during those 2 periods, relatively speaking.
Again, I realize that I can't rely on this heating season's usage to gauge future usage, but maybe with a little adjusting I may be able to squeeze a bit more savings from it going forward.
Thank you, Vinny.