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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,861
    Also point out to the installer that the unit already had a liquid line drier installed at the factory and he should not have added one to the liquid line . I might not always flow nitrogen although if the home owner ask me if i was going to i surely would .i would ask them to extend your install warranty for one more year .then pay up

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Here :)
    Posts
    78
    Kitra,
    Yes! Pay them for the job!, balance is due when job is done and system is working properly. I have seen many residential systems in the city that lasts 20-30 years, even before I started HVAC career. Some of these unit located on rooftop that is almost impossible to get to, let's be honest here not everyone of us will use nitrogen every time we braze. There have been many many time I brazed without nitrogen even on large chiller as long as filter drier cores were replaced and deep vac Was done. As a trainee back in 1993 I saw many many systems were installed without nitrogen being used are still running to this day. Pay you due!!


    Sent from mobile device.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Anderson,SC
    Posts
    1,034
    I'd be more concerned it they pulled a deep vacuum.

    KITRA:
    Did they use a micron guage? Pull below 250 microns? Hold below 500 after a min?

    Hold their feet to the fire.

    STUD

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
    Posts
    3,978
    I say it's time homeowners hold contractors accountable for not doing their job correctly. This way they will have to start doing things correctly, or get out of the business and let the ones who do the job correctly get more business. I wouldn't mind seeing them having to rip the system out and take it back to the shop w/o getting paid. Then hire a company to do the job that does it the correct way. Screw crappy jobs and the contractors that do them.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,121
    Quote Originally Posted by kitra View Post
    I'd hire Kevin any day of the week.....
    I wished you would have, so we could keep all the Preachers in check, like stud said I would be more concerned about the vacuum.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
    Posts
    9,441
    So, we've determined that a nitrogen purge should have been done, and wasn't.

    Which brings us back to the OP's original question:

    "Should I even pay them the balance?"

    Which raises the question.....What resolution is the OP looking for?

    If he doesn't have to pay the last half, the install is now acceptable?

    What are we seeking here?
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    East Grand Forks, MN
    Posts
    1,375
    Quote Originally Posted by kitra View Post
    What really can be done now that it's up and running? If it was never run, do the brazing over using correct procedures. If it's going to be fine like it was done, the Check is on the way. We pay our bills but expect the experts to be just that, otherwise, I could of hired someone loser off of Craiglist to do it.
    This is were 10 year P&L warranty comes in. If you don't have it, then have them give it to you for their incompetence.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    3,615
    Two points....I agree with arc8, if you have "doubts" then request a free 10 yr. labor warranty on this system for peace of mind (factory backed only!). And the other point is job specs. If you want to make sure something is done in a certain and "specific" manner then simply write up some specifications for the job and require that each company submitting proposals follow the same spec. list. I KNOW, everyone will dig into this and say how does the average homeowner do this when they are not "experts" in this specific job skill? Well, they hire an expert to write the specifications, and then go thru a formal written proposal acceptance process. The homeowner can't simply "hire" some small business person to perform a task for a specific amount of money, and then "threaten" to not pay them if not performed how the homeowner wants it done when the small business owner was not furnished (in writing) an exact list of what the homeowner wants when job proposal was requested. I know that sounds harsh, but my family has been in home heating and cooling for about 60 years, and just in the last few years has nitrogen "purging" ever been part of an AC/HP install. Thousands of units running for lots of years without it?? I realize the 410a thing and moisture have mandated it, but for years NOBODY used nitrogen purging!! If the contractor performed the install in a professional manner, and the unit works fine, simply ask for additional warranty coverage!

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
    Posts
    9,441
    If the OP KNEW it was supposed to be purged during the install, and he WATCHED the installer braze without purging, he should have stopped the job ON THE SPOT, and called the owner to resolve it then.

    At this point, it sounds like a shake-down to skate on the payment, because there is no legitimate resolution, short of tearing the entire job out.....if the purging really is the issue....
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    S.E. Pa
    Posts
    6,290

    Cool

    Unless it was specified in the contract to purge with N2 then it sounds like he performed to the contract. There are no nationally recognized standards of care that require N2 purge. Just because certain programs or schools 'recommend' it, doesn't make it a std of care.

    From what you've told us, I'd say you owe him for completion of the contract. If anything goes wrong only then would you have recourse and that is based upon your state's laws, specfically construction defect law and if you have 'Right to Repair" laws on the books. Until there is a loss, you don't have damages, therefore you don't have a case and he could put a mechanic's lien on you.

    When in doubt, contact an attorney.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL.
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    If the OP KNEW it was supposed to be purged during the install, and he WATCHED the installer braze without purging, he should have stopped the job ON THE SPOT, and called the owner to resolve it then.

    At this point, it sounds like a shake-down to skate on the payment, because there is no legitimate resolution, short of tearing the entire job out.....if the purging really is the issue....
    I agree w/John on this one - it sounds to me like kitra is looking for an excuse not to pay the contractor what's due.

    Most if not all systems that are installed today have been installed w/out N2 purge @ the same time as brazing, & without any ill effects.
    WHY?

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern VA 38 degrees N by 76 degrees W
    Posts
    5,062
    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    Unless it was specified in the contract to purge with N2 then it sounds like he performed to the contract. There are no nationally recognized standards of care that require N2 purge. Just because certain programs or schools 'recommend' it, doesn't make it a std of care.

    From what you've told us, I'd say you owe him for completion of the contract. If anything goes wrong only then would you have recourse and that is based upon your state's laws, specfically construction defect law and if you have 'Right to Repair" laws on the books. Until there is a loss, you don't have damages, therefore you don't have a case and he could put a mechanic's lien on you.

    When in doubt, contact an attorney.
    So it would be your contention, that even though the manufacturer requires it in there installation instructions, if it is not written in the contract that it has no merit?

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    20

    Wrap-up.

    OK, they've been paid-in-full. Here's some more detail - I called the installer at the time on the fact that he was not using a nitrogen purge and he looked stunned. Then he continued to braze and said his nitrogen tank and regulator are back at the shop (5 miles away). He insisted it would be fine. Then he started to evacuate the system and took off for lunch. Came back and finished up. The company insists nitrogen purging in not necessary but I've heard it's more critical with R410A. So they got their money, we got a nice system that hopefully won't fail anytime soon. And yes, it does say to purge with nitrogen in the installation manual.

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