Time to pull out of Afgan and just level the place as needed - Page 5
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  1. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbar View Post
    How about this for a solution!
    You got rid of bin laden.
    So pull out.
    That part there works, Bin Laden is supposedly dead, they don't want us there so I say we bring the troops home and worry about taking care of our own problems.

  2. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_in_WV View Post
    That part there works, Bin Laden is supposedly dead, they don't want us there so I say we bring the troops home and worry about taking care of our own problems.
    You want out and so do I. You know what? FOLLOW the MONEY!!!

    That is where we'll all find out what is really going on, but unfortunately for all of us, we will never (or hardly ever) find out. We're not savvy enough for this game, "too bad, sooo sad"...

    An old quote from an old friend...


  3. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennac View Post
    Well tree the CIA is not responsible for the foreign policy of the government. Granted all is true about the rebels in Libya and I have said so from day one.

    I hate the US supporting the "Arab Spring". I have said so ab nausea. I was against us going into to Iraq from the get go. We didn't owe Kuwait anything. We lost the WTC over that and helped start a resurgence of radical Islam in the war against Western Civilization like has never been seen since the Muslims evaded France from Spain and Vienna from the Balkans.

    If they had won those two campaigns we would not be living in a civilized world today. We would be stuck in the 9th century living in hell on earth. Bush was naive where Obama is out to destroy our country. The CIA in my opinion is composed of dedicated Americans to the core. They have kept us free from the commies but like I said they don't make foreign policy contrary to what you may think. Thank you, thank you very much
    Point is CIA is in cahoots with Al Qaeda, the US government is in cahoots with Al Qaeda, the US government created Al Qaeda, the US government supported Al Qaeda post 911 in Libya.
    America; first we fight for our freedom,
    then we make laws to take it away.

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  4. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyTree View Post
    Point is CIA is in cahoots with Al Qaeda, the US government is in cahoots with Al Qaeda, the US government created Al Qaeda, the US government supported Al Qaeda post 911 in Libya.
    I do love conspiracy theories, but seriously dude if the powers that be were all that big and evil then we would all be in concentration camps already.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

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  5. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    Karzai was appointed in 2002 by mandate and then served a two year term as Interim President and then after that was re-elected for two additional terms (so far).

    He is largely a prisoner president. On one side he needs US support, on the other there is nothing he can do at this time about his largely reactionary population who, let's not forget, are also largely uneducated and somewhat beholden to the still powerful Taliban.

    Again, this ain't Iraq. Not even close.
    You got it, Pontiac!

    I'm sure you know exactly what I mean...

    Been there done that, let's all head home...

  6. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by corny View Post
    Opium has been Afghanastans economy since before recorded history..... thats why they leave it alone.

    There is nothing else there....
    It's true the opium has been there for a long time and is their main cash crop...however, in our past bid to "win friends and influence people", we threw millions to their corrupt govt. in the 70's to build canals to irrigate food crops. Many of the food crops were not indiginous to there and took a lot of WORK to bring to market for very little money.

    I have no use for them but they are not stupid. Why bust your butt growing stuff that doesn't want to grow there and make no money.
    Avatar is a tribute to my Great Grandfather, Andrew Stewart. This pin was one of his advertisements for his heating and plumbing business. I never knew him but must of inherited his love of things mechanical since I am the only blue collar worker in the family

  7. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by enb54 View Post
    A very good friend of mine's son-in-law lost his leg from an IED on his second day there. It really is time to get out and leave them all to their own devices, you just can't help people who won't help themselves...

    Sorry all, just distressed about the whole mess...

    Cooler... hope your son gets home OK and never has to go back...
    His Lt. had both legs blown off during the first tour within one week in country.

    He received excellent training but its hard to fight an enemy that the population supports and blends right back into the town....and everyone in town knows who they are.
    Avatar is a tribute to my Great Grandfather, Andrew Stewart. This pin was one of his advertisements for his heating and plumbing business. I never knew him but must of inherited his love of things mechanical since I am the only blue collar worker in the family

  8. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by texas cooler View Post
    His Lt. had both legs blown off during the first tour within one week in country.

    He received excellent training but its hard to fight an enemy that the population supports and blends right back into the town....and everyone in town knows who they are.
    Really sorry to hear that, it just reinforces my own feelings that either we "nuke" the ba$tards (not really an option) or just leave them to kill each other. They do not (a lot of them) appreciate that we are trying to bring them into the modern world, so if they can't even try to help themselves no amount of money or young people's lives is going to make a difference. That as someone posted is not a country, but a bunch of tribal/religious bands of huts/villages that are run by despotic warlords, just like Somalia. The people will rebel and get a real government when THEY want to, NOT when we tell them to.

    In the meantime, our aid should consist of giving everyone over 14 an automatic rifle and a case of ammunition (with some basic firearm training... 1 hour should do it). That way, the playing field is equal and everyone has a gun. I'll bet that the cost of my "re-education" program is a lot less than what we and even the Soviet Union spent in trying to bring these idiots into the world of running water.

    Sorry all, just got really PO'd hearing about this lieutenant...

  9. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by enb54 View Post
    Really sorry to hear that, it just reinforces my own feelings that either we "nuke" the ba$tards (not really an option) or just leave them to kill each other. They do not (a lot of them) appreciate that we are trying to bring them into the modern world, so if they can't even try to help themselves no amount of money or young people's lives is going to make a difference. That as someone posted is not a country, but a bunch of tribal/religious bands of huts/villages that are run by despotic warlords, just like Somalia. The people will rebel and get a real government when THEY want to, NOT when we tell them to.

    In the meantime, our aid should consist of giving everyone over 14 an automatic rifle and a case of ammunition (with some basic firearm training... 1 hour should do it). That way, the playing field is equal and everyone has a gun. I'll bet that the cost of my "re-education" program is a lot less than what we and even the Soviet Union spent in trying to bring these idiots into the world of running water.

    Sorry all, just got really PO'd hearing about this lieutenant...
    You have nothing to apologize for, I brlieve you thinking is on the right track. And on topic. We all have to admit that 10 years in Afgan, the current 'plan' is a major flop. I figure we have accomplished our primary objectives quite well, I am not declaring failure, it is just that the continuation there seems rather pointless at this time.

    I personally thing the western forces [or political leaders] need to seriously re-think the way modern wars are conducted.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "Ain't nobody got time for that". Corny

  10. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    I personally thing the western forces [or political leaders] need to seriously re-think the way modern wars are conducted.
    Yes...

    The modern military has the capability to obliterate nearly anything. If you are going to use that military, then use it to its full capability, to make war. This business of hanging on for 10 years in Afghanistan/Iraq with no end in sight to internal violence is just wrong.

    We have somehow lost sight of our original objectives...

  11. #63
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    ... that's because the original objectives were more political than having a specific strategic objective that you cna build missions around.

    OR rather, more accurately, the initial objective was met rather quickly. That's the problem with policing the world or fighting "terror" in a overt manner out in the open. You soon find yourselves in a mode of occupation. Historically, militaries are not good at occupations. They are costly, demoralizing and often fail. You have ot conquer, then wind hte hearts and mids of the people and establish a local government with a police force to take over. We've had 1- years to do this. We failed... not because we didn't try, but because the residents are unwilling to accept change. Much of Iraq actually desired change, therefore it worked.

    But hell lets stay there another 20 years so we can say we tried harder than the Soviets.

    I'm sure I'm oversimplifing it. But honestly some population and cultures don't lend themselves to true democracies. Russia is a good example. I think China is another. Neither country will funcition as a true democracy. And if you think Russia is truely democratic and has "free" open elections... think again.


    Personally, Iraq may have been worht the effort and cost... but only time will tell. Afganistan... is a waste. With the same expenditure of manpwoer, lives and resoruces, we could have launched a truely massive counterintellgency and convert operations throughout the middle east and been far more effective.


    Since terrorism itself operates covertly, is decentralized and mobile, then to fight it, you need intellgence, mobile well trained units and convert operations. How does occupying an entire country fulfill that objective? Even if we could modernize Afganistan and make it a "free" country, ultimately it's too poor in terms of resources and economy to ever stand on it's own and see any progress.

  12. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    ... that's because the original objectives were more political than having a specific strategic objective that you cna build missions around.

    OR rather, more accurately, the initial objective was met rather quickly. That's the problem with policing the world or fighting "terror" in a overt manner out in the open. You soon find yourselves in a mode of occupation. Historically, militaries are not good at occupations. They are costly, demoralizing and often fail. You have ot conquer, then wind hte hearts and mids of the people and establish a local government with a police force to take over. We've had 1- years to do this. We failed... not because we didn't try, but because the residents are unwilling to accept change. Much of Iraq actually desired change, therefore it worked.

    But hell lets stay there another 20 years so we can say we tried harder than the Soviets.

    I'm sure I'm oversimplifing it. But honestly some population and cultures don't lend themselves to true democracies. Russia is a good example. I think China is another. Neither country will funcition as a true democracy. And if you think Russia is truely democratic and has "free" open elections... think again.


    Personally, Iraq may have been worht the effort and cost... but only time will tell. Afganistan... is a waste. With the same expenditure of manpwoer, lives and resoruces, we could have launched a truely massive counterintellgency and convert operations throughout the middle east and been far more effective.


    Since terrorism itself operates covertly, is decentralized and mobile, then to fight it, you need intellgence, mobile well trained units and convert operations. How does occupying an entire country fulfill that objective? Even if we could modernize Afganistan and make it a "free" country, ultimately it's too poor in terms of resources and economy to ever stand on it's own and see any progress.
    In my case, you are preaching to the choir...

  13. #65
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    Cool

    Since Korea, our success on the battlefield has never been about our soldier's capability but rather the interference of politicians. In a perfect world, a Commander in Chief would order the military to destroy a certain target and remove that country's ability to wage war. Wind them up, turn them loose and step out of their way. Support them with whatever they request in men, bullets and bacon. Then when you get the memo stating objectives accomplished, place the memo in the bin marked "completed waiting to be filed". Done.

    The problem with our military has always been the gelding by liberal politicians. They are not blood thirsty animals who would kill everyone were it not for the liberals. They just want you to think that. Just understand that our casualties are much higher than they should be and you can thank the bleeding heart liberals for that.

    Sometimes I think our soldiers should be aiming their guns behind them instead.

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