Bosch TA049 VS Climatemaster Tranquility27

[LibertyTree]

Which one do you guys like more? My salesperson and I were talking about which unit we would rather install on our next Geo job thats coming up in a few weeks. I like the idea that Climatemaster is designed in part by a contractor and that it has a built in flow center (is this true for the Tranquility 27?). What do youguys think? Any real differences? Pricing is very close.

http://geothermal.net/bosch-ta049-ge...al-heat-pump-0

http://residential.climatemaster.com...quility-series

[ServiceMgr28]

Really isn't a lot of difference between the two, i have installed both. We are just getting better prices on the bosch right now

[LibertyTree]

Really isn't a lot of difference between the two, i have installed both. We are just getting better prices on the bosch right now

The Tranquility 22 seems like a pretty nice, well thought out unit. I think we're doing one in a few weeks

[ServiceMgr28]

We have not installed any of the Tranquility 22's due to the price difference between that and the 27, so unfortunately i can't give you any first hand advice on it. If you are still comparing it against the bosch the EER rating is higher on the bosch i believe than the 22

[cb24803]

I am partial to the Bosch. My company has install several TA Series Units and they have Performed Great and Been Trouble Free

[waterpirate]

We are not big fans of the circ pumps being inside the units. That means that they are makeing some quantum assumptions about the loop field design and distances from the loop field to circ pump. I also think that variable speed circ pumps are going to surge in the market place given the ability to run controls off delta T at the lwt on the units.

Trying to reinvent the mousetrap in my opinion, one mouse trap does not fit all installs. And I guess they are discourageing anyone who does a non pressurised flow center as opposed to pressureised?

How and when to move fluid should be left up to the installer/designer.

Eric

[mo geo man]

On board and variable pumps are coming from all manufacturers, the pump load affects the EER. Also no pump manufacturer wants to do more than 2 year warranty.

[waterpirate]

I realise that all this is comeing. But it does not make it any easier on us. Our motto is to never say no. That leads to some interesting piping schedules that require more feet of head than you would think normal to move the fluid.

If the loop field has to go in X location, and the unit or mech room is farther than what the manufacturer anticipated for the unit, who is responsible and how do we address it?
Eric

[mo geo man]

Thanks Waterpirate,
It is alot to figure but it is being driven by the government and the escalating standards that are scheduled. No job is the same, most never end up as planned because we drill in different conditions daily at least in our area. Then you get inside and wereever you planned to put the unit someone doesnt like it and changes get made. So it might get harder, but I dont see to many options out there.

[waterpirate]

I have told all my customers that I will follow the manufacturers lead untill the first train wreck. When there is carnage on the tracks we will have to make some changes. I also think the initial offering by CM was piss poor on their outdoor splits. Instead of a pump module being put in the cabinet like was done in the past, it looked like 2 monkeys, a football, and a engineer were given a box of parts and some duct tape?
Eric

[19characterusername]

1. You could set the ground side up as variable primary and variable secondary. The equipment controls its circulator to get the ground water flow it wants and then your main pumps could control to maintain a loop temp set point or something.

2. You could do two pumps in series and give them the same speed signal/command so they look like a single pump to the controller and equipment.

3. Failing that or with multiple equipment you could put a flow meter on the pumps that are under equipment control and then in a hydraulically decoupled ground loop you could match the flow rate of your equipment.

1 is difficult to optimize, 2 and 3 might move more water through the ground than is optimal.

[waterpirate]

It has been my experiance that useing either 1,2,3, in a residential application is a train wreck waiting to happen. The key to a good solid residential geo install is to resist the urge to " get to cute" with the circulators or the controls. The KISS principle will yield the best results wit the fewest call backs.
Eric

[19characterusername]

Agree. Resi is not the place for complex controls. Although, I've had a job or two come through my office where something like that would be applicable due to the scale of the project. But those are houses in the Hamptons with 20 TR cooling loads. It gets stupid when you're looking at a single zone with a single piece of equipment on the loop.

Another idea I've just had is that you could put the additional pump in series with integral pump and in parallel with a check valve. You'd turn it on with a low limit and high limit aqua stat with a huge dead band in between. you could also look at delta T across the source side HX: very high values would indicate inadequate flow and would be a simple check of flow being within spec and operating needs.

[waterpirate]

Agree also

In my AO we build alot of ocean front Mcmansions and to call them straight ahead resi is a dis service to the design build engineering it takes to get the all the systems to work and play well with each other. Once you go over ten tons of load there is no easy control because to 5k units never get the job done. It allways seems like you get at least 4 seperate units to get it done.
Eric