electrical (low voltage wiring) license

[g money]

Was running t- stat wire and told by insp. that a permit had to be pulled for the job. Was an existing unit and no electrician was involved in the job. Not being a licensed electrician could not pull a permit myself. So my ? is has this been a problem for any one and does anyone know if their is a license that can be obtained for low voltage wires so does not happen anymore.

[crab master]

Need more info. What state are you in?
Washington State sucks for the licensing issue.
That's the only one I am aware of. Electricians felt HVAC guys were taking too much of their trade so got they lobbyists and created their own board, mainly of union electricians, that control all the licensing. The state sees it as a way of making $ with all the extra permits and licenses. It's a nightmare. It's all under the guise of the State L and I. It's such a diaster, you now have to pull a special permit for about anything you do. Replace a piece of wire in the unit as it was burnt up you better pull a permit before you replace it. Also add a fan cycling control to a unit, better pull a permit as you've "altered the original configuration" so you need a "qualified" inspector to tell you it's ok. That's just the beginning, it get's much worse. Not only that if you get fined and you try to fight it you go up against a board of electricians. This Electrical board has so much power that they can over turn a Civil Court Judges' ruling. It's all there on the Washington State L&I website if you think I am kidding. Also to add to that if you fight a fine and if you lose, no I'll rephrase, when you lose you pay all your fines plus court costs plus they withhold like 250/500 dollars that they keep as well when you lose. Oh yeah and the ones that show settled - they plead guilty and paid a full/lesser fine but are on "probation." I could say much more but I'll hold off for now.

[chillyz]

What a joke!That's all we need is more beuracrats running these trades.Just another way to line their pockets.It's really ashame to say the least.These people put profits above safety.Wrong against right and don't think twice about doing it to their neighbor.I have no doubt that everyone at one time or another was honest and wanted to do the right thing when they came into this trade or trades but this system corrupted them.Everyone found their price.
Eventually they always do.

[alpha480v]

Wow,Looks like I will never relocate there!

Washington state sounds like a mess,what a joke!

[maustin]

The State of Oregon is as bad. I work for the state as an HVAC technician and last October it was decided that I must obtain a Limited Maintenance Electrician (LME) License. I followed the Building Codes Division (BCD) rules for verifying past experience an submitted an application with 12,500 hours of verified and notarized experience.

My application was denied. I appealed the case to an administrative judge who found that "an agency can interpret their rules in any way as long as they do not specifically contradict a rule".

Furthermore, the supervising electrician with my agency was fined $1,000.00 for permitting me to perform the work I was hired to do.

I am now enrolled in an apprenticeship program so that I can work toward the LME license. At the last class I learned about safely working with electricity and how to set up a ladder against a building. I have worked as a technician and installer in the HVAC field since August of 1987.

Good luck to anyone else who can't even do their job thanks to the politics of a government agency.

[evildberg]

Yes there is a licence available. Among my many other licences I have a state power limited electrical licence. If you are in a union, you can usually take the prep class through them, if not you can ususlly take it through a local tech college and it will cost you about $200+ Check with your state board of electricity for the details of what licences they offer.

[maustin]

The Oregon LME license requires 6 trimesters of coursework at $200.00 per trimester in addition to 4,000 hours of verified experience.

Did I forget to mention that if the experience occured anywhere but at a licensed electrical contractor, it is considered illegal by the Oregon Building Codes Division?

Anyone with less than a Journeyman card can only replace like for like. No new installations.

[g money]

Thanks for your responses. I'll have to look into seeing if Mass. has a Limited electrical license. I know oil burner tech. (Licensed) are allowed to run wires , but only up to 10 ft.

[DeltaT]

Not like this hasn't been talked about before but few are listening.

To all you proud union memebers your methods are working very well out here on the west coast, particularly in Washington State, as you are putting a lot of small, hard working businesses out of business.

Each quarter the Electrical Division of the Labor & industries board posts, for the public to see, all the fines and actions taken against Washington State contractors, that also means any contractor who is required to qualify for and posses an electricains license of some sort which includes sign people, garage door people, maintenance people including personel who repair office building lighting, HVAC, Plumbing, heating, communications, on and on -- anyone who touches, removes, repairs, connects any type of with that have any type of EMF...

This list is usually about 3 to 4 pages long with 200 contractors being cited with their fines which tend to go from $50 to $3,000. The majority of the contractors are not HVAC companies but small sign, plumbing, maintenance and other companies including individuals. There are still a good portion of HVAC companies and I would say most or shops with less than 5 employees that are non-union of the ones I am familiar with.

I have three friends that have closed up shop because of these new laws.

But there is some backlash showing up as the public is getting hit with the amazing amount costs involved in keeping the contracts away from doing their business, and the fact that home owners and business owners are seeing small, dependable companies leaving or dissappearing.

And, as I have stated many times before, this is soon to come to your state.

Honesly guys, you can not even began to conceive the stupidity and effect this will have on your business.

You union guys should sure be proud of yourselves. I only know of one union friend, an electrical, that is fighting mad about this.

[crab master]

AMEN DELTA T! Its amazing, we have a local competitor - union - that does a lot of control work. More than us. Well we look at there permits pulled and they pulled 5. We pulled 43 or so. Not much that can be done. I tried fighting the L&I as I got a bogus fine saying I was "double dipping" on my experience which was absolutely a lie. How do you double dip when you are grandfathered? Well that was their claim and they told me I could fight it so I looked up my odds - three different administrative law judges ruled for the individuals but the electrical board has so much power that they overruled the administrative law judges ruling and reinstated the fine and penalties. The union is the biggest part in this mess without a doubt. Look at who's being fined and who isn't. Granted they fine a few union companies now and then, but you can't tell me it's all private firms that are so "illegal" as the numbers clearly show.

[DeltaT]

Crab
I applied for all this crap thinking it was a simple process based on cutomer protection. That is what the gov't is for, protecting us citizens.

Very, very short version.

Eight months AFTER sending in the application to apply for the stupid licensing no reply from L&I. Paid all the fees, signed the forms, notorized, etc, etc. Many calls and still no response cept they did not have me in their computer base and I would have to reapply and repay all the HIGHER fees! Said I'll send you my canceled check showing I have already paid all the fees.

No response cept advice that I need to reapply and repay.

Called the Governors office. Within two weeks I got a response. Same thing - reapply and pay the new even HIGHER fees. Apparently someone in the Govs office contacted them as to my intentions so I get a call saying they found my payments so all I need to do is continue to continue to send in my application forms. They did assign me a lady at L& I to get me through this.

Asked the lady to tell me the EXACT words I am suppose to write on the ADDITIONAL forms she was now sending me. Got the form, filled them in per her words, sent them to her desk. Short time later she returned those forms stating I did not use the right words and would have to start the process all over.

Anyway no one wants to read everything they put me through but this was a two year process and cost me over $18,000 out of my pocket including the enormouse amount of lost time I was forced to spend with these idiots.

And they are still at it now requiring about 7 differnt specialty licenses including a massive amount of permits which are now required if we remove one thermostat wire or replace a burnt out compressor terminal.

This also give the state the right to enter the home owner residence so the inspectors can look at the balance of the home in any way they desire.

The real stupidity in this is the lack of action of the contractors in our states, Idaho, Washington, Oregon & California as they rool over and allow themselve to literally be run out of business.

Do you know that once the grandfather clause expired, which is has years ago, there is no way for a self-employed already in business or opening a new business person to get the necessary license to continue to be or open a new mechanical trades business in this state? In order to be an HVAC contractor in this state, no matter your background, you must now work for an electrical contractor for 2 or 3 years as an apprentice.

The only orginazition that has attempted to do something about this is the Inland Mechanical Association, or something like that, in Spokane but they have been stonewalled for the past 3 years or more.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by g money
Thanks for your responses. I'll have to look into seeing if Mass. has a Limited electrical license. I know oil burner tech. (Licensed) are allowed to run wires , but only up to 10 ft.

Like Evildberg, I live and work in Minnesota and there is a system and method set up here. HVAC technicians can essentially work on anything "in the box". That is, if it shipped in as part of the equipment, installed inside the box of the AHU, condensing unit, etc and so forth. No problem, HVAC tech can repair, replace, and so forth. The "catch" comes in when it comes to adding exterior wiring. ie Stats, remote sensors and actuators, and so forth.

In this later case, essentially the State Board of Electricity simply wants to know that whoever is installing such knows the minimum rules and requirements governing such things. As there are definite rules for ALL wiring, low voltage or not.

In this state, not referring to any other, the State Board of Electricity made what I think are reasonable provisions for HVAC techs, boiler techs, lawn watering and irrigation equipment techs, and so forth ... trades that aren't specifically thought of as "electricians" to qualify for and get an appropriate electrical license. Most went for ... and if they had anything on the ball at all ... got the new "Limited Energy Technician" license. Often referred to around here as the "low voltage electrician" license.

In reality, that license is really only needed for new installs. As someone with the license is required to do, or at least approve of, "the design, planning, and layout" of the new system, and to apply for the permit where required.

Where I work, we have both electricians and HVAC techs doing controls. And our controls techs (HVAC mechanic and otherwise) all have their Limited Energy licenses.

The way this state did it, it's not really all that hard to get if one is the least bit motivated. And both union and non-union classes are commonly offered.

FWIW, in this state, it wasn't a union motivated thing. In fact the head of the State Board of Electricity is not particularly union friendly. But he, and the rest of the Board, plus many employers and CUSTOMERS who get stuff installed ... wanted some controls and monitoring of low voltage wiring as well as high voltage. And this had nothing SPECIFICALLY to do with HVAC wiring. The new rules govern standard voice comm telephone wiring, computer data networks, cable television, etc and so forth. There was simply a LOT of shoddy, inadequate, and sometimes dangerous installations being put in. Given the shear amount and diversity of low voltage wiring for so many uses and purposes these days, everybody pretty much agreed that there needed to be some method to implement oversight, inspection, and so forth.

Fact is, I agree.

In any event, check the rules for your state. Don't just ask for opinions. You know the old saying about opinions being like ...., and everybody has one.

It's likely that almost every state has different rules. Licensing is NOT dictated by the NEC. Licensing is a state and/or municipal issue. You need to check out the rules and laws yourself. And be cautious as to accepting the simple word and opinion of someone, even someone from your own area, without verifying the facts of what you are told.

The reason I mention this is that here in this state where I live, if yah ask some people in the field ... you will regularly and routinely hear bogus info. Things more like "I heard that John's buddy overheard the guy down the street saying he overheard his coworker saying he'd heard ....", etc. And the guy relating all this to yah will say "It's the LAW ...".

ROFLMAO ... gad if I only had a nickel for how many times I've heard such like things, just to then check it out for myself and find out it wasn't any such thing. Or, at least, that the interpretation of the law or rules by the speaker was WAYYYYY off from the literal truth and facts. ie Not long ago I overheard a licensed, journeyman electrician (high voltage) telling one of our HVAC techs (a pipefitter)some things whic simply are not true. As concerns what the pipefitter could or could not due ... by LAW. At least, that's how the electrician asserted the fact to be. He and I had a little talk later. Where I set him straight. What he'd asserted was in fact a rule of the Union Work Agreement. But had nothing to do with literal LAW or Code.

Now as far as the guys who'd previously responded to yah who were talking about Washington, Oregon, and California. Heck, I'd just about believe em without question. Would not find anything they said about the People's Republics too far fetched to be believed. As those places do seem to have almost unbelieveable and endless layers of bureacracy and endless numbers of little Commissars of This and That who rule with iron fists and closed minds. (I've lived in 2 of those states in the past)

Anyway, it's best yah learn the real rules and laws for your area. Good luck.

[crab master]

Delta T - it's the Inland Northwest HVAC Association out of Spokane. Get who you can to back them and call senators/legislatures and complain. What sucks for me is I live in Idaho so when I call I am a nobody to the state of Washington as I am not a Washington voter. Also BEWARE, the same thing is coming down the pipe for plumbers. Seriously, get who you can to back the Inland Northwest HVAC Association. This is completely wrong that the Electrical Board can act as a gestapo, and that they are above an Administrative Law Judge. It is really sad what the union has done via licensing and the state to guys who are trying to do good honest work. It's cost me $500 plus lost "credited work experience" when all I was trying to do is honestly advance myself in Washingtons licensing mess so I could be legal when things are questionable with the 06 vs. the 06A license.