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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Beech Creek, PA
    Posts
    68

    Trane PCV side winder Surging

    MN: PCV4F-C1D2/SN: L4K18558
    I Can not load the Machine with out it Surging operating pressures/temps.

    In-cond. water temp.-71deg
    out-cond. water temp-72 deg

    in-chilled water temp-54 deg
    out-chilled water temp-52 deg

    discharge gas temp-163deg.
    condenser temp-76deg(before the orifice plate)
    After the orifice plate-72deg

    evap. suction temp 53deg

    Condenser pressure 4#
    Evap pressure 10'' hg

    cond. satur. refrig temp-87deg
    evap satur.refrig. temp-53deg

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    13,832
    is there a bypass?

    how can you raise the condenser water temperature?

    is your purge working?

    what is your purge rate?

    I assume you are not all aired up cus your head is low?

    without a pt chartr, it looks like your condenser water approach is good?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    55
    The pressure-temperature information you have provided suggests that the machine contains R-11. The approach temp seems very high (87 degree sat. cond. - 72 degree leaving h2o temp = 15 degrees) given that your evaporator delta T is only 2 degrees. I strongly suspect non-condensables, I would check purge operation first.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    La.
    Posts
    280
    Need to know the water flow in condenser, you have air or water issue, maybe dirty tubes.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    101
    Wow! Old machine. Over 30 yrs. Seems to have air in it. Do a hot water leak test. If leaks are found, discuss with owner if it is worth it to tear down such an old chiller. Test purge effectiveness. Is it still belt drive? There is always vacuseal as a temp leak repair. Many parts are no longer supported on that chiller.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Southeast, Michigan
    Posts
    54
    As I remember, these machines didn't run very well lightly loaded.

    Also if the inlet vane bushings get worn the operator sticks, then hunts like the devil, and will surge on the unload transitions.

    Also don't discount that it isn't a problem with the vane control itself, we used a pneumatic operator and had a spring that connected to a device that slowed down the action, to prevent hunting. Too much dirty or wet air will make these devices misbehave.
    Klaus Koenig
    Walbridge FM


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,108
    All my money is on both condenser tube fouling and non-condensibles. Probably split 70/30, though. 15 degree condenser approach is bad. All of the R-11 chillers I've worked with that got really filled up with air ran much higher than 4# condenser pressure. Most don't start surging until they get in the 7# to 10# range. It's rare, but I've seen some actually trip the high pressure switch.
    "There is no greater inequality than the equal treatment of unequals."

    -Thomas Jefferson

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    632
    I agree with the other posts, your condenser approach is too high. What percent load are the readings taken at? If your running that low tower temps and still getting 4 psi at say 50-60% your problem lies in your condenser. Verify your flows, I am going with air in the system- check purge. Someone else mentioned too low condenser water very true, 80-85 with these old machines helps with oil return.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    The Great country of Texas
    Posts
    429
    I like the non-obvious.
    Is the pin broke on one of the vane assemblies? (common)
    Is the divider in the condenser head still intacked?(not common)
    "I'm from Texas, what country are you from?"

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    ottawa canada
    Posts
    2,045
    Quote Originally Posted by stickerhead View Post
    I like the non-obvious.
    Is the pin broke on one of the vane assemblies? (common)
    Is the divider in the condenser head still intacked?(not common)
    Im with sticker and also the non condensables .
    All gaskets still available no old pneumatic control panel parts available . time to convert/update her or scrap her .
    The 64 roars to life Whoo hoo ...shes a rolling chassis .
    You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
    I"m not a service tech.. I"m a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
    Best Austin Healey In Show twice in 2013 .....All those hrs paid off .

  11. #11
    Is this chiller's Discharge Superheat calculated using Condensing Saturated Temp. or Discharge Saturated Temp.? If it's Condensing, then your Discharge Superheat is 76 degrees. Very little if any refrigerant in the condenser. Your high Evaporator Approach can indicate an undercharge. Your high Condenser Approach probably means fouled tubes. Don't be afraid to open your Condenser up. Judging just by age, you may have an undercharge, non-condensables, & dirty Condenser tubes. Surging can be caused by any of these things. How's your Condenser Delta P? Check your purge, then your tubes. Go from there. Good luck.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Kansas City, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    13,832
    I am not sure there is such thing as discharge saturated temperature?
    pretty sure that the hot gas is not saturated until it is desuperheated?




    Quote Originally Posted by MechanicallyInclined View Post
    Is this chiller's Discharge Superheat calculated using Condensing Saturated Temp. or Discharge Saturated Temp.? If it's Condensing, then your Discharge Superheat is 76 degrees. Very little if any refrigerant in the condenser. Your high Evaporator Approach can indicate an undercharge. Your high Condenser Approach probably means fouled tubes. Don't be afraid to open your Condenser up. Judging just by age, you may have an undercharge, non-condensables, & dirty Condenser tubes. Check your purge, then your tubes. Surging can be cause any of these things. How's the Condenser Delta P? Go from there. Good luck.
    I WILL SELL WORK,GENERATE BUSINESS, GO GET NEW CUSTOMERS!
    YOU SHUT THE HELL UP AND QUIT RUNNING YOUR MOUTH!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by supertek65 View Post
    I am not sure there is such thing as discharge saturated temperature?
    pretty sure that the hot gas is not saturated until it is desuperheated?
    I think I thru an extra saturated in there.

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