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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    9

    Proposal thoughts?

    We decided that in addition to addressing air leakage in the home, we'd also go for more comfort, and put out a bid for a heat pump system. Based on our 11.8c/kwh electric vs. the uncertainty of oil prices in the future, we decided to go all-electric. Our existing ductwork was properly sized for AC in the future, so it doesn't need to be completely replaced, but there are areas where the tape used is coming off (age), and that would be replaced with the iron-on tape.

    They're going to remove the low-boy oil furnace and associated equipment and add a return from the basement up to the second floor to promote better air circulation.

    equipment:
    Carrier 25HBC542A003 HP
    Carrier FV4CNB005T00 air handler
    Carrier 24KW heat strips
    Carrier t-stat

    Total came to $x including concrete pad outside, all installation, and tax.

    AHRI search returned this:
    3646151 Active Systems BASE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HBC542A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 42000 13.00 15.50 42000 8.70 25800
    Last edited by BaldLoonie; 01-27-2012 at 05:40 PM. Reason: price

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,052
    Prices are not allowed.
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    9
    I can't seem to edit it, sorry

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,837
    So what's the question? Is there one buried in there somewhere?

    I'll make a comment that you're assuming the ducts were properly sized. If I were investing several thousands of dollars in a new system, you can bet I'd require a full room-by-room load analysis before I'd entertain any proposals. If the quote you received did not automatically include a current Manual 'J', then I'd walk away from that one and continue searching for a company that doesn't cut corners. Otherwise, the company is guessing and you are gambling thousands of dollars on a single bet. I'd recommend against that combination. But it's your money and your house. Now about the question....
    If YOU want change, YOU have to first change.

    If you are waiting for the 'other guy' to change first, just remember, you're the 'other guy's' other guy. To continue to expect real change when you keep acting the same way as always, is folly. Won't happen. Real change will only happen when a majority of the people change the way they vote!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    9
    Sorry, my question was about the price, but I forgot the rules.. Might as well delete the thread.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,195
    Eskimo

    What is location?

    I agree about having load calc performed and a thorough evaluation of ductwork system.

    I would also move up to at least Carrier's Comfort series level over the base level.

    And depending on your location, I would want a HP system to have electronic demand defrost feature over the cheap time/temp method of defrosting.

    Anything about a whole house air filter cabinet.

    And note your extra large heat strip size. You realize that's over 70 KBTUs? I first would want to see the load calculation and would insist that heat strip be staged.

    What thermostat was quoted?

    Any other heating source other than the new HP system?

    IMO

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    9
    Hello tigerdunes,
    We're located in central PA, in the susquehanna valley.

    The load calc was performed by the company doing the bid, and the ductwork was examined quite thoroughly for size, R-value, condition, and CFM rating. The first owners of the house intended to add a A/C coil at some point and had sized the ductwork appropriately.

    What does the comfort series heat pump buy me over the base? Looking at the specs, I didn't really see much difference other than a sound blanket on the compressor motor, but I'm probably missing something.
    Base HP:
    3646151 25HBC542A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 42000 13.00 15.50 42000 8.70 25800
    "Comfort" HP:
    3676242 25HCC542A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 42000 13.00 15.50 42000 8.60 26200

    Tell me more about the electronic defrost vs. time/temp? I would have thought that's built into the HP or a controller.

    I asked about the heat strips as I too thought they were huge, but based on the load calc, that's what's needed to maintain temp if the heat pump should fail. I assumed they will be staged, but I will be sure to get that in writing, thanks.

    Thermostat wasn't specified in the bid, but I believe it to be the Thermidistat, especially since we're looking to have a steam humidifier added. (the house gets bone-dry in winter). That's also something I'll check on... and may insist on the edge series.

    There will be no other heat source other than the HP system, other than some existing electric baseboard heat in the finished basement (1.5kw worth)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,195
    Eskimo

    Electronic demand defrost feature reduces and eliminates nuisance, unnecessary, and expensive defrost calls over the cheap time/temp method.

    For your location, I would want this feature in a new HP system.

    And BTW, Carrier does not have this feature on their HPs.

    Sorry.

    And I still think 24 KW heat strip size is oversized. Make certain they are staged.

    IMO

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Suppy NC
    Posts
    4,513
    24kw is a lot. i would look into daul fuel even with oil high pricing you may find it to be lass expensive orver strip heaters
    the heat pump will be doing most of the work till you hit the balance point
    should do a cost comparison even with staging the heaters may be more costly then oil

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    9
    Our current forced air oil furnace is (admittedly oversized) at 150k BTU's, and I was told in another thread that about half that size would be about right for us, so 70k seems about right.

    The house is basically a open floor plan in a cape cod style, with everything except the master suite on the main floor. the great room has 15 foot ceilings, 2 skylights, a triple-wide sliding glass door, and between it and the kitchen, there are 11 windows. Not terribly efficient for heat loss, but the view is amazing looking down on the valley... so we deal with it.

    I was using a heating fuel comparison calculator I found on the EIA website, pure electric resistance heating works out to be $150 more than I paid for oil last year. But, without having to spend $100 servicing the furnace and $125 cleaning the flue every year, I see it as a few bucks ahead?

    So I must be missing something here.. Oil was $3.65 a gal at last fill up, electric is .119/kwh, and I used 450 gallons of oil last winter.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,195
    Eskimo

    Here is a fuel comparison I ran using your current prices.

    For the furnace, I used 82% efficiency.

    For the HP, I used 2.75 COP.

    Understand this is a comparison of BTU cost and is to be used as a guide only.

    Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat
    Electric baseboard: $3.16
    Heat pump: $1.28
    Oil: $3.23

    IMO

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Suppy NC
    Posts
    4,513
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimo1 View Post
    Our current forced air oil furnace is (admittedly oversized) at 150k BTU's, and I was told in another thread that about half that size would be about right for us, so 70k seems about right.

    The house is basically a open floor plan in a cape cod style, with everything except the master suite on the main floor. the great room has 15 foot ceilings, 2 skylights, a triple-wide sliding glass door, and between it and the kitchen, there are 11 windows. Not terribly efficient for heat loss, but the view is amazing looking down on the valley... so we deal with it.

    I was using a heating fuel comparison calculator I found on the EIA website, pure electric resistance heating works out to be $150 more than I paid for oil last year. But, without having to spend $100 servicing the furnace and $125 cleaning the flue every year, I see it as a few bucks ahead?

    So I must be missing something here.. Oil was $3.65 a gal at last fill up, electric is .119/kwh, and I used 450 gallons of oil last winter.
    450 gal last year straight oil now figure it to be about two thirds less with the heat pump and see if you are still ahead with electric back up
    keep in mind you are talking 25kw with is arround 95amps when it turns on
    not trying to cause a problem just making sure you are not back nest season asking why it is costing so much. keep in mind electric increase down the road. also keep in mind changing to a 70 or 80,000 btu furnce will use even less oil with the high eff rating of a new furnace
    your contractor should be able to give you a complete cost comparison

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,052
    Quote Originally Posted by tinknocker service tech View Post
    450 gal last year straight oil now figure it to be about two thirds less with the heat pump and see if you are still ahead with electric back up
    keep in mind you are talking 25kw with is arround 95amps when it turns on
    not trying to cause a problem just making sure you are not back nest season asking why it is costing so much. keep in mind electric increase down the road. also keep in mind changing to a 70 or 80,000 btu furnce will use even less oil with the high eff rating of a new furnace
    your contractor should be able to give you a complete cost comparison
    Doubt he really needs 24 KW of strip. His contractor is probably playing it safe, and added some padding to the load calc, if he is the one that did it.

    The price of oil is more volatile then electric is here. Plus the OP can lock in his electric price if he wants.
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