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  1. #1

    Repair Goodman v New Trane Xl16i or xl20i or Carrier

    Hi. We need some help. Every single contractor has told us different things about our needs.

    Our home is a 2005 build, faces N/S, in the panhandle of NW Florida. It is approx 3,000 sf, with one level, split design with kids' rooms on far side of house.

    We have a 5-ton Goodman unit from 2004, installed in 2005. It is:
    Model: ARUF061-00A-1A
    Model Description: 5.0 TON AIR HANDLER, 60HZ, LRG
    Standard Warranty: Parts Standard Warranty Parts Exp. DT: 12/14/2014
    Registration Information
    Dealer Name: Date Installed: 2005-06-09 00:00:00.0
    Compressor: 5 Yrs Indoor Brand: N/A Building Type: Residential

    The evaporator coil has failed (second one), and we need to replace.

    Our options:

    1. Apparently Goodman is under warranty, and we could get new one put in for cost of labor and all the freon (which is completely gone). Pro: temporary fix. Cons: it is a loud unit, inefficient and we will need to replace relatively soon anyways.

    2. Trane. One company is saying Trane XL20i with communicating air handler or XL16i. Pro: seems like fine units; will help regulate humidity in home (which in Florida is intense); and seems to be able to address issue of hotter/colder rooms on far side of house (summer/winter). Cons: they are asking what appears to be absolutely full MSRP, with no discounts (i.e., VERY expensive).

    They say no better than Trane for rusting in our area, etc, etc.

    He also says following comments, which conflict with other dealers:
    a. that at full capacity, XL20i operates at 19.8 SEER with big compressor, and that will smaller compressor running, operates more like a 24-25 SEER.
    b. That according to his load calculations, we require no more than a 4-ton unit. Every other contractor had disputed this.

    3. Trane Contractor 2. He is also "Trane Comfort Specialist". Same system, much less money. However, he recommends 5-ton unit, and "noncommunicating" XL20i. He says the communicating XL20i is actually less efficient at 17.25 SEER, compared to noncommunicating XL20i, which is at 17.75 SEER. Pros: cheaper price, but he is authorized Trane-certified,etc.

    a. Trane Contractor 1 says that there is no such thing as a noncommunicating XL20i.

    4. Contractor 3 prefers Carrier systems. He proposed three systems:
    Option #1: Carrier Infinity Series, 19 SEER, Puron Heat Pump System
    a. Recover existing system refrigerant (R22).
    b. Remove & dispose of existing 5 ton Goodman Heat Pump system.
    c. Flush refrigerant lines to allow for conversion to R-410A refrigerant.
    d. Furnish & install a Carrier Infinity Series, 19 SEER, heat pump system comprised of the listed system components.
    i. 25HNB960A003 Infinity, 2 speed, Heat Pump Condenser
    ii. FE4ANF06T00 Infinity Air Handling Unit
    iii. KFCEH3001N15, Auxiliary Heat Strip
    iv. SYSTXCCUID01, Infinity Controller
    e. Heresite condenser coil corrosion protection.
    f. Furnish & install an SS2 condensate safety float switch (code required).
    g. Evacuate refrigerant system to 500 microns.
    h. Furnish R-410A refrigerant to adjust refrigerant charge to the specified operating levels.
    i. 10 year Parts & Labor Warranty
    j. Installation Labor
    k. Permits, fees & taxes

    Option #2: Carrier Infinity Series, 16 SEER, Puron Heat Pump System
    a. Recover existing system refrigerant (R22).
    b. Remove & dispose of existing 5 ton Goodman Heat Pump system.
    c. Flush refrigerant lines to allow for conversion to R-410A refrigerant.
    d. Furnish & install a Carrier Infinity Series, 19 SEER, heat pump system comprised of the listed system components.
    i. 25HNB660A003 Infinity, 2 speed, Heat Pump Condenser
    ii. FE4ANF06T00 Infinity Air Handling Unit
    iii. KFCEH3001N15, Auxiliary Heat Strip
    iv. SYSTXCCUID01, Infinity Controller
    e. Heresite condenser coil corrosion protection.
    f. Furnish & install an SS2 condensate safety float switch (code required).
    g. Evacuate refrigerant system to 500 microns.
    h. Furnish R-410A refrigerant to adjust refrigerant charge to the specified operating levels.
    i. 10 year Parts & Labor Warranty
    j. Installation Labor
    k. Permits, fees & taxes

    Option #3: Carrier Performance Series, 16 SEER, Puron Heat Pump System
    a. Recover existing system refrigerant (R22).
    b. Remove & dispose of existing 5 ton Goodman Heat Pump system.
    c. Flush refrigerant lines to allow for conversion to R-410A refrigerant.
    d. Furnish & install a Carrier Infinity Series, 19 SEER, heat pump system comprised of the listed system components.
    i. 25HCB660A003 Performance, 2 speed, Heat Pump Condenser
    ii. FV4CNF06T00 Performance Air Handling Unit
    iii. FB4-15-15, Auxiliary Heat Strip
    iv. TP-PRH01-A, Performance Thermidistat
    e. Heresite condenser coil corrosion protection.
    f. Furnish & install an SS2 condensate safety float switch (code required).
    g. Evacuate refrigerant system to 500 microns.
    h. Furnish R-410A refrigerant to adjust refrigerant charge to the specified operating levels.
    i. 10 year Parts & Labor Warranty
    j. Installation Labor
    k. Permits, fees & taxes

    He says most people go with option three.

    5. Contractor 4 says that he prefers Rheem, and that 2-stage compressors are to fancy and unnecessary for residential use. He says to go with simple 1-state 15 SEER Rheem.

    We are just trying to find best cost-effective unit for our home with following variables in order of importance:
    1. Comfort, including humidity control;
    2. Quiet. Our current one is very loud inside and out of home.
    3. Performance/Efficiency;
    4. Clarity (we don't know whether we really need 2-compressor v. 1 compressor, 4 v 5-ton unit, etc);
    5. Cost.

    I know this is long post. Any answers/feedback, even to subparts very welcome.
    Last edited by cigarzfan; 01-16-2012 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Missing info.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
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    5,520
    Quote Originally Posted by cigarzfan View Post
    2. Trane. One company is saying Trane XL20i with communicating air handler or XL16i. Pro: seems like fine units; will help regulate humidity in home (which in Florida is intense); and seems to be able to address issue of hotter/colder rooms on far side of house (summer/winter). Cons: they are asking what appears to be absolutely full MSRP, with no discounts (i.e., VERY expensive).

    They say no better than Trane for rusting in our area, etc, etc.

    He also says following comments, which conflict with other dealers:
    a. that at full capacity, XL20i operates at 19.8 SEER with big compressor, and that will smaller compressor running, operates more like a 24-25 SEER.
    b. That according to his load calculations, we require no more than a 4-ton unit. Every other contractor had disputed this.

    ....
    a. Trane Contractor 1 says that there is no such thing as a noncommunicating XL20i.

    Contractor 1 is 1/2 right. All XL20i's are communcating... BUT you can install them conventionally using regular controls and thermostats.

    Contractor 1 is the only one that bothered with a load calculation. I suspect that a 4 ton signle stage will be more effcient and give you run times nearly as long as the 5 ton and ultimately use less energy. A 4 ton XL15i would be a good choice from this contractor IMO with a good thermostat that can dehumidify on demand... meaning lower the airflow to remove more moisture from the air.


    You might look for another contractor that will do a load calculation.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,670
    lmci


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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    The Alamo
    Posts
    3,025
    I would be less concerned about the SEER and the brand but focus on the contractor that will do the job correctly. A high SEER unit installed improperly or oversized, will work less efficiently than a mid-range unit that is installed properly and tested at start up.

    First, would you let your doctor perscribe something without a thorough check-up and review of your symptons? Of course not.

    Proper check-up and review of an hvac system include, not in any particular order - 1) room by room manal J and manual D load calc 2) duct airlfow test/inspection (are you cooling your attic?) 3) interview the customer to uncover symptons and concerns.

    Do not be suprised if this sort of investigation of your home's comfort system is not free - you have seen what free gets you so far.

    " We are just trying to find best cost-effective unit for our home with following variables in order of importance:
    1. Comfort, including humidity control;
    2. Quiet. Our current one is very loud inside and out of home.
    3. Performance/Efficiency;
    4. Clarity (we don't know whether we really need 2-compressor v. 1 compressor, 4 v 5-ton unit, etc);
    5. Cost."


    If cost is truly your least concern and comfort is your highest, look into the XL20i that is properly sized matched with a XL950 zoning system. This will give you the best comfort as far as even temp and humidity control, quiet operation indoors and out, and very high efficiency.

    It would also be worth the money to test your duct system so you know if your new unit is delivering air into the right spaces or not pulling in hot, humid, unfiltered outdoor/attic air.

    When you zone, use the system to provide even temperatures; set all stats at the same temps, and you will be very pleased.
    Read, read, read!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Ocean Pines, MD
    Posts
    6,988
    If you have to spend less on your equipment to get the home properly diagnosed, sized and correctly installed your end up with better comfort and better efficiency.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Suppy NC
    Posts
    4,513
    you are in the pan handle so life exspectancy is about 10 years and you will be doing this again
    15 seer unit will give you a better pay back imo

    also keep in mind multy stage units are for comfort moreso then savings
    they just draw less current from the power companies even with longer run times

    find out your best payback options on each unit

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    Contractor 1 is 1/2 right. All XL20i's are communcating... BUT you can install them conventionally using regular controls and thermostats.

    Contractor 1 is the only one that bothered with a load calculation. I suspect that a 4 ton signle stage will be more effcient and give you run times nearly as long as the 5 ton and ultimately use less energy. A 4 ton XL15i would be a good choice from this contractor IMO with a good thermostat that can dehumidify on demand... meaning lower the airflow to remove more moisture from the air.
    He recommended longer run times on smaller compressor to minimize start/stops, and to better regulate humidity.

    You might look for another contractor that will do a load calculation.
    We are having another come out. To date, everyone on phone says, "Well, based on fact that builder used 5-ton, you have a 3,000 sf home, and that the inspector signed off on the house, a 5-ton is best for our heat."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by sarge View Post
    I would be less concerned about the SEER and the brand but focus on the contractor that will do the job correctly. A high SEER unit installed improperly or oversized, will work less efficiently than a mid-range unit that is installed properly and tested at start up.
    I understand this. I just don't want to be left holding bag if the 4-ton is not enough.

    First, would you let your doctor perscribe something without a thorough check-up and review of your symptons? Of course not.

    Proper check-up and review of an hvac system include, not in any particular order - 1) room by room manal J and manual D load calc 2) duct airlfow test/inspection (are you cooling your attic?) 3) interview the customer to uncover symptons and concerns.
    He did measure the home and check ducts. They said ducts are great, although one needs to be resized.

    Do not be suprised if this sort of investigation of your home's comfort system is not free - you have seen what free gets you so far.
    So far all have been free. I have no problem paying for detailed inspection for our needs. No one has asked for it.

    " We are just trying to find best cost-effective unit for our home with following variables in order of importance:
    1. Comfort, including humidity control;
    2. Quiet. Our current one is very loud inside and out of home.
    3. Performance/Efficiency;
    4. Clarity (we don't know whether we really need 2-compressor v. 1 compressor, 4 v 5-ton unit, etc);
    5. Cost."


    If cost is truly your least concern and comfort is your highest, look into the XL20i that is properly sized matched with a XL950 zoning system. This will give you the best comfort as far as even temp and humidity control, quiet operation indoors and out, and very high efficiency.
    Believe it or not, cost is least concern, but don't want to be taken advantage of. Many contractors have said that there is no need to go above the XL16i.

    It would also be worth the money to test your duct system so you know if your new unit is delivering air into the right spaces or not pulling in hot, humid, unfiltered outdoor/attic air.
    Their "engineer" went up and checked out ducts. He said they look pretty good, along with insulation. One minor tweak suggested.

    When you zone, use the system to provide even temperatures; set all stats at the same temps, and you will be very pleased.
    I hope!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    The Alamo
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    3,025
    Quote Originally Posted by cigarzfan View Post
    Their "engineer" went up and checked out ducts. He said they look pretty good, along with insulation. One minor tweak suggested.


    I hope!
    Just so you know what an airflow performance check is.

    The person will need to take static pressure readings in up to 4 places on your system - like taking your blood pressure.

    The blower fan speed should be noted as well.

    How many cubic feet of air can your current system deliver at it's current fan speed and static pressure?

    How many cubic feet of air is your system pulling in at the return(s) and how many CFM is it delivering at the supplies? This is not a 5 minute test, but up to 2 hours in some homes using some kind of expensive equipment. It does provide you with a lot of info.

    If you home has a 5 ton right now but your ducts are only capable of delivering 4 tons of air......?
    Read, read, read!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,670
    bobbie69,

    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum. In order to post a response here, you must have verified qualifications and have been approved by the AOP Committee. You may ask a question by starting a new thread.

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  11. #11
    Update: Contractor 2 will contact local power company to determine load rating for home.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarge View Post
    Just so you know what an airflow performance check is.

    The person will need to take static pressure readings in up to 4 places on your system - like taking your blood pressure. The blower fan speed should be noted as well.
    Good to know.

    How many cubic feet of air can your current system deliver at it's current fan speed and static pressure?
    Is this possible without any freon in current unit?

    How many cubic feet of air is your system pulling in at the return(s) and how many CFM is it delivering at the supplies? This is not a 5 minute test, but up to 2 hours in some homes using some kind of expensive equipment. It does provide you with a lot of info.
    I'd run this test if possible.

    If you home has a 5 ton right now but your ducts are only capable of delivering 4 tons of air......?
    They are going to come check ducts.

  12. #12
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    Western PA
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    heatpumpguru

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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Portland OR
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    Since others have already mentioned finding the right contractor first, lets look at the second part the numbers they are quoting for efficiency(which only mean something when installed correct with matched equipment and properly sized ductwork)
    A communicating XL20i 4 Ton unit matched with either a TAM8048 or 4TEE3C06 communicating air handler reaches a max of 17.5 SEER
    A communicating XL20i 5 Ton unit matched with a TAM8060 is 17.5 SEER or matched with a 4TEE3C08 is 17 SEER. So if they are saying 19.8 SEER and up to 23-24 that guy is a liar flat out, make him prove his ratings.

    If you are not using a heat pump and using the AC only XL20i then you can get up to 18 SEER in either of those sizes with an air handler.
    I do highly recommend the XL20i for humidity removal and if you are doing zoning the two compressors is amazing.
    http://youtu.be/3z52XC_3eOo
    That is a zone system we recently installed with an XL20i Heat Pump and communicating gas furnace.
    I can't speak about the Carrier but hope this helps with the Trane equipment.
    Check out my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 We have customer testimonials, product reviews and more!
    Like us on FACEBOOK if you like our advice here!

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