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  1. #105
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    Feb 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw481 View Post
    I've seen this offer before...usually it works out for all parties involved. Just because he's offering to work for free doesn't mean he doesn't expect to be compensated. And just because the owner takes him up on it doesn't mean he plans to let the guy work free. As long as they make it through the first week together I have no doubts they will agree on a mutually profitable deal...

    For the record...I did something similar when I started here...over 7 years ago.
    Exactly. I don't think John will allow him to work for free. I believe the point John is trying to make is that the man is WILLING to work for free to prove himself, which says a lot about his character.

  2. #106
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
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    98
    Quote Originally Posted by 71CHOPS View Post
    I just want you all to know that this string is helping me a great deal as an individual "looking for work".

    I have been on both sides of the line as far as employer or employee......only in different fields than this. As an employee, I only want to be treated fairly and honestly......as an employer, I want the same things.

    I haven't had to do an interview for almost 15 years before Friday. From this string, I have learned that I must sell myself as someone that will have the company's best interest in mind...by being able to do my job 100% correctly, not having any excuses for my failures, and for owning everything I do, basically putting my name to every task I perform.

    I may not know as much as the next guy, but if I am honest about my knowledge/experience, my potential employer may be more willing to share thier knowledge with me.

    I must be 100% honest with my potential employer about my future goals, and where I expect myself to be in 1 year, 3 years, or 10 years.

    I had what I thought to be a great meeting with a potential employer the other day.....I applied all of these things to that informal interview, and think it went well. I may not be hired, but I can say without a doubt that if I am not, I have no regrets about what I've said I can bring to the table, nor do I regret giving them a possible timeframe for no longer bieng employed by them should I be hired.

    thanks again.....

    It should be this way anywhere you work... if you intend to stay any length of time.

    You should be able to call your boss and say hey...I screwed up...this is what I did, here's what I need to fix it..how do I make it right?

    If your honest, it's not usually a big deal...try to hide it and it's gonna bit you in the butt..most supervisors will respect and appreciate the honesty and know they can depend on you...and a heads up is always nice in case there's a phone call coming!!

  3. #107
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Dixiana, AL
    Posts
    2,610
    Quote Originally Posted by 71CHOPS View Post
    I just want you all to know that this string is helping me a great deal as an individual "looking for work".

    I have been on both sides of the line as far as employer or employee......only in different fields than this. As an employee, I only want to be treated fairly and honestly......as an employer, I want the same things.

    I haven't had to do an interview for almost 15 years before Friday. From this string, I have learned that I must sell myself as someone that will have the company's best interest in mind...by being able to do my job 100% correctly, not having any excuses for my failures, and for owning everything I do, basically putting my name to every task I perform.

    I may not know as much as the next guy, but if I am honest about my knowledge/experience, my potential employer may be more willing to share thier knowledge with me.

    I must be 100% honest with my potential employer about my future goals, and where I expect myself to be in 1 year, 3 years, or 10 years.

    I had what I thought to be a great meeting with a potential employer the other day.....I applied all of these things to that informal interview, and think it went well. I may not be hired, but I can say without a doubt that if I am not, I have no regrets about what I've said I can bring to the table, nor do I regret giving them a possible timeframe for no longer bieng employed by them should I be hired.

    thanks again.....
    I think you got it!!!

  4. #108
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,350
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    As soon as I type this, something will happen to change it.....but I have NEVER had an employee ask for a raise. NEVER.

    If you're proving yourself, the raises come......Understanding business does not automatically make one "greedy"....
    I never said anyone is greedy. I understand business. I also believe you may have jinxed yourself.
    You are better then most and I believe you, and you are the minority. Keeping your staff is hard to do.
    I have been on the other side of the equation, working my tail off and having to ask for raises. Just like the vast majority of skilled labor.
    I STARTED WITH NOTHING, AND I STILL HAVE MOST OF IT!

  5. #109
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
    Posts
    9,441
    There are some, for whom "money" is all that matters.

    For others, "situation" is equally important. While it would be nice to assume that every shop has half a dozen qualified techs, that is not always the case. Some shops require you to run after hours calls 24/7.....Some shops have a 50 mile radius, while others 15.

    Some shops have meetings and tell their guys how much revenue their truck must generate every week, or else.....Some shops have complicated base wage plus commission pay/spiff plans, while others pay straight hourly, without forcing their guys to "sell" in order to make a paycheck.

    I could go on, but you get the point. But, it has been my observation over the years, that the guys who only care about money are typically the least satisfied, and are the ones who work in 8-9 different shops in a 15-20 year period.

    Likewise, the owner who only cares about how much he raked in this week, typically has one of the poorest skilled crews in the area.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  6. #110
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    17,960
    I had my share of employers in this trade and ultimately found one that I stuck with for 10 years before going on my own.

    The reason I stayed was not the pay but rather the people I worked with. The boss was a nice guy and generally in a good mood most of the time.

    Both the head technician and installer were pleasant to work with and brilliant at their trade.

    The dispatcher/secretary was also very pleasant.

    This made going to work each day enjoyable as there was no upmanship, mind games, or jerkys to deal with.

    When I finally did leave, I was capped out and it was just time to move on. To this day we are still friends and when Im sick or on vacation, they handle my calls.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.

    Theodore Roosevelt

  7. #111
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    N.E. Indiana
    Posts
    879
    John, I don't think you are a dumb guy. What you say, rings true to some extent.

    However, I think where you and I (a well as others) don't see eye to eye is experience. Not all bosses are bad guys. Some are pretty good folks that take care of their people and treat them right. But MOST are just simply NOT that way.

    It certainly doesn't ALLWAYS boil down to the almighty dollar. But when every employer is just like the other, and they have a habit of, well, not treating people good, then you're right, it boils down to dollars and cents.

    The days of a guy working for one or two companies in their lifetime are gone. The corporate america mentality, did away with that. People are a commodity to most employers, not an investment. Nothing but a warm body to fill a position. Being in a "service" sector of the world, you should see that for yourself if you look around. Where has customer service and doing the job right the first time, gone?

    I may, or may not be, a dying breed. I honestly WANT to learn things the RIGHT way and do the best job possible. I don't want to do hack work, or take shortcuts that are questionable. If it's worth doing, it is worth doing it right. I will give it my all, and I want the guy I work for to do the same for me.

  8. #112
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The depths of hell in PHX AZ
    Posts
    1,140
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    Okay then....define "living wage"....He's obviously living on his wife's salary now.

    Interesting, that when a guy offers a reduced rate trial period to a potential employer....you see it as the employer taking some unfair advantage.

    It was offered, not asked for. And, as I stated earlier, while I will take him up on his offer, he will be paid accordingly.

    Because you may not be able to afford such an offer, that doesn't make him wrong for doing so. If I needed a job, I wouldn't hesitate to make an indentical offer.....not that I'm saying that YOU should, or have to......Everyone's circumstances, abilities, and confidence are not the same.
    John dont defend yourself. Your doing nothing wrong and I too have seen things alot differently since having and running my own business. It isnt all fun and games. It is not easy as some guys tend to think and you do not roll around on your bedfull of cash every night.

    The fact is it is a changing world and we are all in for a rude awakening if we think we can continue to make top dollar for everything. I wont go further into that tyrate because we will get lost on that instead.

    I just had my second interview in 6 years since self empl. The first one was a joke and was a large company trying to replace their contractors with a in house tech. By far the biggest waste of my time ever. They wanted a guy like me. Do it all. Figure it all out. Fix it all. Stay late. Have tools. No fear. ETC ETC. Every time I asked what they expected to pay, benefits, hours, etc. ANYTHING I ASKED. Um we aren't sure. It all depends on the package we decide to offer. Regardless I was still game because I was okay with being the go to guy and doing what they needed because of where I was at at the time that would have been a decent fit for a while. Regardless it fell through.

    Then I moved to AZ. Now I have no business (what little was left in PA) and its time to either get a job or go for my own again. I don't have the energy right now to do it on my own or the desire. So I am back in the market. The first place my resume hit that I was actually interested in (non res..comm ind inst. mechanical co) and they called me for an interview. I saw this thread before my interview and it really made me think. I honestly NEED a job. I know I'm worth more than they wanted to pay. But I know what its like too. To be in business. To have guys say they are the best only to fall short. Etc.

    I haven't heard back yet. I am pretty sure it will happen because they flat out told me that I went to the top of the list when they got my resume. My truck will be a chevy colorado with a cap. Do I say to them I am too good for that. I need more. ETC. Nope. I will do what I need to do to show them I am viable and worth more. I hope they will follow through. Simple as that.

    Do I want training? 40 hours? unreasonable expectations?

    no

    I want to go to work. get paid what im worth and go home and forget about my day. The whole continued education demands make me laugh. As a guy that never had the classes and still made it I put little emphasis on this. Also maybe we should join the rest of the world that if you want to further yourself you have to pay for it OR sign an agreement with the company. But like I said. What I have noticed throughout my years is the guys that get sent to CARRIER school, and all the other training are the ones that come back and learn NOTHING.

    But I rant. Listen guys. Alot of you that THINK you are good and deserve more than god. But when it comes down to it you just might be wrong. AND if you aren't making money for the employer you are NOT an asset. So man up, grow a sack and get with it guys.

    Anyway its late and I had a few so Ill comment more later. lol
    I will believe that the government is broke when the welfare checks start bouncing!!

  9. #113
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    South central WI
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy-lvhm View Post
    John dont defend yourself. Your doing nothing wrong and I too have seen things alot differently since having and running my own business. It isnt all fun and games. It is not easy as some guys tend to think and you do not roll around on your bedfull of cash every night.

    The fact is it is a changing world and we are all in for a rude awakening if we think we can continue to make top dollar for everything. I wont go further into that tyrate because we will get lost on that instead.

    I just had my second interview in 6 years since self empl. The first one was a joke and was a large company trying to replace their contractors with a in house tech. By far the biggest waste of my time ever.

    This is exactly the job I have now. I cleaned out half the service contracts my first year. I kept my head down and my mouth shut and learned all I could. I saved the company big $$$. I'm still waiting for a pat on the back which according to you shouldn't happen?.


    They wanted a guy like me. Do it all. Figure it all out. Fix it all. Stay late. Have tools. No fear. ETC ETC. Every time I asked what they expected to pay, benefits, hours, etc. ANYTHING I ASKED. Um we aren't sure. It all depends on the package we decide to offer. Regardless I was still game because I was okay with being the go to guy and doing what they needed because of where I was at at the time that would have been a decent fit for a while. Regardless it fell through.

    Then I moved to AZ. Now I have no business (what little was left in PA) and its time to either get a job or go for my own again. I don't have the energy right now to do it on my own or the desire. So I am back in the market. The first place my resume hit that I was actually interested in (non res..comm ind inst. mechanical co) and they called me for an interview. I saw this thread before my interview and it really made me think. I honestly NEED a job. I know I'm worth more than they wanted to pay. But I know what its like too. To be in business. To have guys say they are the best only to fall short. Etc.

    I haven't heard back yet. I am pretty sure it will happen because they flat out told me that I went to the top of the list when they got my resume. My truck will be a chevy colorado with a cap. Do I say to them I am too good for that. I need more. ETC. Nope. I will do what I need to do to show them I am viable and worth more. I hope they will follow through. Simple as that.

    Do I want training? 40 hours? unreasonable expectations?

    no

    I want to go to work. get paid what im worth and go home and forget about my day. The whole continued education demands make me laugh. As a guy that never had the classes and still made it I put little emphasis on this. Also maybe we should join the rest of the world that if you want to further yourself you have to pay for it OR sign an agreement with the company. But like I said. What I have noticed throughout my years is the guys that get sent to CARRIER school, and all the other training are the ones that come back and learn NOTHING.

    But I rant. Listen guys. Alot of you that THINK you are good and deserve more than god. But when it comes down to it you just might be wrong. AND if you aren't making money for the employer you are NOT an asset. So man up, grow a sack and get with it guys.

    Anyway its late and I had a few so Ill comment more later. lol
    So which is it?
    The more I learn the smarter I work.

  10. #114
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
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    18,589
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    As soon as I type this, something will happen to change it.....but I have NEVER had an employee ask for a raise. NEVER.

    If you're proving yourself, the raises come......Understanding business does not automatically make one "greedy"....
    That raises a VERY important point, and this is mainly for the young guys who have been programmed by pop culture and public schools, but also for the older guys who never "got it."

    Who defines greed? Is it you? A President? Some other government official? A movie actor, like Sean Penn? Maybe some sort of activist, who follows Saul Alinsky?

    I think you need to understand that question, because it is a relative concept.

    Let's compare you, a low wage beginning HVAC tech, to a guy who has no job, and frankly, hasn't tried real hard to find one. He is living off the money that comes out of YOUR paycheck, in taxes. You are supporting him.

    Follow me, camera guy?

    Ok. Now, let's say that after all your training, your school, your tools, and your hard work, you ask for a raise, based on merit. Your boss recognizes your hard work and dedication by giving you a raise.

    What does the guy say who is living off your money?

    He says you are "greedy."

    Now, stop and think about that.

    Now, place into context the "occupy" movement. A lot of guys your age, doing basically nothing. Many have been recruited to be used a a tool in the 2012 elections. It is not a grass roots protest, but an engineered elitist protest, designed to foment displeasure and class envy, the basic tenets of promoting Communism.

    So, when you think about the word "greed," place it into context, and realize that greed, like beauty, is truly in the eye of the beholder.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  11. #115
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The depths of hell in PHX AZ
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    1,140
    Quote Originally Posted by btcstudenthvacr View Post
    So which is it?
    It's so had to follow responses in a quote. LOl

    You said you learned all you could. Kept your head down. So you didn't have the experience showing up? I did at that place. Everthing they had I could work on. They had a minimum of two contractors on site daily. The money I would have saved them was abovE and beyond. They wanted to salary me plus have me work at a site an hour away when that guy needed help. My car. My gas. My tools. My calculatIons were almOst six figures from what they exPected. This was a critical run data centers. Crazy amounts of money pouring in. Which I didn't begrudge them. They just had no answers at all. Not even a range of pay. It pissed me off. Wasted my time completely. Then the one old fart "consultant" said I seemed overconfident. It was laughable. But anyway that's a different situation than working for a contractor.

    Paid what I'm worth. Like i said. Some of us think a bit too highly of ourselves. Nobody is willing to prove themselves. Yes some places might take advantage. But most decent places will take care if you if you do them. But to expect the company to pay you crazy money while you shoot the crap at the supply house, drink your am coffee, etc is a bit crazy. I've seen guys get paid training AND expect their hourly while doing it. Give me a break.
    I will believe that the government is broke when the welfare checks start bouncing!!

  12. #116
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    South central WI
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy-lvhm View Post
    It's so had to follow responses in a quote. LOl

    You said you learned all you could. Kept your head down. So you didn't have the experience showing up? Nope, just an education.
    I did at that place. Everthing they had I could work on. They had a minimum of two contractors on site daily. The money I would have saved them was abovE and beyond. They wanted to salary me plus have me work at a site an hour away when that guy needed help. My car. My gas. My tools. My calculatIons were almOst six figures from what they exPected. This was a critical run data centers. Crazy amounts of money pouring in. Which I didn't begrudge them. They just had no answers at all. Not even a range of pay. It pissed me off. Wasted my time completely. Then the one old fart "consultant" said I seemed overconfident. It was laughable. But anyway that's a different situation than working for a contractor.

    Paid what I'm worth. Like i said. Some of us think a bit too highly of ourselves. Nobody is willing to prove themselves. Yes some places might take advantage. But most decent places will take care if you if you do them. But to expect the company to pay you crazy money while you shoot the crap at the supply house, drink your am coffee, etc is a bit crazy. I've seen guys get paid training AND expect their hourly while doing it. Give me a break.
    My personal frustration is proving my self day in and out for no reward. The mentality of jumping ship for another dollar more is alive and well on the board and in the industry. It's not fair, but that's life.
    The more I learn the smarter I work.

  13. #117
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    N.E. Indiana
    Posts
    879
    Quote Originally Posted by btcstudenthvacr View Post
    My personal frustration is proving my self day in and out for no reward. The mentality of jumping ship for another dollar more is alive and well on the board and in the industry. It's not fair, but that's life.
    There is where the major problem in the employer/employee relationship lays.

    I currently do NOT work in the HVAC industry, but soon enough I will. The problems that plague HVAC work, are the same problems that plague ALL industries.

    For myself, I have gotton very good at what I do. I have asked for more education, and have NOT received any. I would even go so far to pay for it myself, but they refuse to let me have the time off. They keep me here, 7 days a week, with no time off.

    Why should a worker, who should obviously deserves more pay, have to come BEG for it? I am not the begging type. This isn't the plantation world, and I am NOT a slave. If I am not apprecaited, I can move someplace else, or do something else, that I can be happier with.

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