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  1. #92
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    BC
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    347
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    That, my friend, is an attitude that you must forever erase from your mind, if you have ANY real intentions of "going into business with your cousin".

    Believe me, as a business owner you will be doing plenty of FREE work, whether you like it or not.....if you plan on being around very long.

    You will run into plenty of jobs, that in the end as an owner you will wind up doing for free or at a loss, for a variety of reasons....especially as a "new" company.
    And if I wanted that headache...I would go into business for myself. But I don't, so as an employee, don't expect me to take that headache on for you.

  2. #93
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
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    9,441
    Quote Originally Posted by fv_tom View Post
    And if I wanted that headache...I would go into business for myself. But I don't, so as an employee, don't expect me to take that headache on for you.
    I think you misread/misinterpreted that post. It was specifically directed to "freemind", and he has stated in prior posts that he was new to the trade, wanted to take classes to learn the trade, and go in business with his cousin.

    It appears to have been taken out of context.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  3. #94
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    South central WI
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    Put yourself in the place of an owner who is about to make his first hire(s)....spin back thru the posts in this thread. You'll find 3 or 4 good candidates who have answered this in a variety of ways.

    As a sidebar, I had lunch with a guy today who is new in town. He moved here because his wife took a great job at a local college. He had his own 2-man shop where he came from.

    He offered to work for 2 weeks for free or minimum wage, then take below-scale pay to start....with the understanding that as he proved himself, he would get raises.

    Great appearance, great attitude, he brought a folder with pictures of his work.

    We don't need anyone right now....but as I've stated in other threads, if the right guy comes along, we'll make a place for him.

    Here's a guy who is eager to earn his place. How can I say "no" ?

    Now, we obviously can't and don't expect that from everyone.

    But they ARE out there. And, based on some of the responses in this thread, they're here too....and if they showed up at my door, I'd get a truck ready for them.

    It's slow now, but give it a few weeks.....if you wait 'til then, all you'll have to choose from, is what's left on the scrap heap for the most part.
    I'm playing devils advocate here...on the flip side.

    You are not doing him a favor by paying him a less than living wage. In your mentality it's ok to take advantage of skilled laborer for your profit? If you have no room for growth hiring him on is hurting you both. If you do have the ability to grow than pay the man for his knowledge and efforts. The skilled laborer is eager to provide for his family period, taking advantage of that is simply greed.
    The more I learn the smarter I work.

  4. #95
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,342
    Reality set in for me a few years ago. Employers are going to pay you what they want to until you don't like it. You will ask for a raise they will say yes or no. If you do not like the offer you may take your talents on the road. This is the way it works, plain and simple.

    As an employer you ride the line what is in your best interest. If the employee can get more money else where he will, if you don't pay him what he is worth. If he is more valuable then what your paying him, some other shop will let you know, by hiring him for more dough.
    I STARTED WITH NOTHING, AND I STILL HAVE MOST OF IT!

  5. #96
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    N.E. Indiana
    Posts
    879
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    That, my friend, is an attitude that you must forever erase from your mind, if you have ANY real intentions of "going into business with your cousin".

    Believe me, as a business owner you will be doing plenty of FREE work, whether you like it or not.....if you plan on being around very long.

    You will run into plenty of jobs, that in the end as an owner you will wind up doing for free or at a loss, for a variety of reasons....especially as a "new" company.

    The guy I interviewed understands this clearly, as he has his license and previously ran his own shop. So, he's not as far off-base as you might think in his thought processes.....and he clearly understands his role (as I stated so many posts ago) that his purpose at my (or anyone else's) company is to be productive and profitable.

    As Timebuilder noted, not everyone has the luxury of making the offer he did....but it's not the cash that counts in this case.....it's the frame of mind.

    He's not the first person to offer that he show his employer what he can do. Nor will he be the last.

    Sorry John, I just don't see it the same way.

    Everyone around here polks me about the situation I am in now. They are quick to remind me that I put myself there. Even an apprentece is worth more than zero, or minimum wage. What kind of fool would I be if I offered to work for free? An employee "proves" themselves in the probationary period. If they make it, great. If not, well thats the way the ball bounces.

    To the shop owner, sure they make screw ups and don't count their costs right sometimes. But how many jobs are you gonna do for free or at a loss before you are bankrupt? Capitolism is great at sorting out the good buinesses from the ones that don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.

    Working for free or minimum wage only benefits the shop owner. It also opens the door to walk over me like a doormat. I couldn't afford to drive back and forth at those wages, let alone buy tools or pay bills.

  6. #97
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    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
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    9,441
    Quote Originally Posted by btcstudenthvacr View Post
    I'm playing devils advocate here...on the flip side.

    You are not doing him a favor by paying him a less than living wage. In your mentality it's ok to take advantage of skilled laborer for your profit? If you have no room for growth hiring him on is hurting you both. If you do have the ability to grow than pay the man for his knowledge and efforts. The skilled laborer is eager to provide for his family period, taking advantage of that is simply greed.
    Is it "greed" on my part, to take a man up on his offer? I didn't ask him to work cheap or for free....He OFFERED....as a means of demonstrating his desire to prove himself....

    And let's be honest.......there's very little real profit the first few weeks of any new hire.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  7. #98
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
    Posts
    9,441
    Quote Originally Posted by allstar08 View Post
    Reality set in for me a few years ago. Employers are going to pay you what they want to until you don't like it. You will ask for a raise they will say yes or no. If you do not like the offer you may take your talents on the road. This is the way it works, plain and simple.

    As an employer you ride the line what is in your best interest. If the employee can get more money else where he will, if you don't pay him what he is worth. If he is more valuable then what your paying him, some other shop will let you know, by hiring him for more dough.
    As soon as I type this, something will happen to change it.....but I have NEVER had an employee ask for a raise. NEVER.

    If you're proving yourself, the raises come......Understanding business does not automatically make one "greedy"....
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  8. #99
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    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
    Posts
    9,441
    Quote Originally Posted by freemind View Post
    Sorry John, I just don't see it the same way.

    Everyone around here polks me about the situation I am in now. They are quick to remind me that I put myself there. Even an apprentece is worth more than zero, or minimum wage. What kind of fool would I be if I offered to work for free? An employee "proves" themselves in the probationary period. If they make it, great. If not, well thats the way the ball bounces.

    To the shop owner, sure they make screw ups and don't count their costs right sometimes. But how many jobs are you gonna do for free or at a loss before you are bankrupt? Capitolism is great at sorting out the good buinesses from the ones that don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.

    Working for free or minimum wage only benefits the shop owner. It also opens the door to walk over me like a doormat. I couldn't afford to drive back and forth at those wages, let alone buy tools or pay bills.
    In the context of my earlier response to you specifically.....

    I was pointing out for you, that if you go in to business with your cousin, you WILL find yourself working for free (or less) from time to time.

    It's the reality of being in business. Trust me, it WILL happen.

    That being said....back to my interviewee.....It was pointed out, that he IS in a unique situation. His wife has a good job. I am not walking on him like a doormat. I am taking him up on his offer. He lives a mile from my shop and has had his tools for years.

    Someone who is confident in his abilities finds himself able to make such an offer.

    Over the years, I've made similar offers to customers. Customer: "Two companies have been here, and can't find the problem, can YOU fix this system?".....Me: "Tell you what, if I don't fix it, you don't owe me anything."

    It gets my foot in the door, and tells the customer that I am willing to SHOW them what I bring to the table.

    It works.
    Last edited by John Markl; 01-22-2012 at 11:03 PM.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  9. #100
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    South central WI
    Posts
    257
    Being honest is knowing the man and his family goes with out, while you profit at a later date.
    He offered to prove himself to you by showing up with the soft skills needed to get started. Isn't that enough?
    The need to offer you free labor comes from the soft job market, nothing more, nothing less.
    If you honestly think training is not worth the investment you would of never made your first step in the business either.
    There is no reason with the necessary skills and inherit risk to be a qualified hvac technician should not come with a living wage from day 1.
    The more I learn the smarter I work.

  10. #101
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sherman, TX
    Posts
    9,441
    Quote Originally Posted by btcstudenthvacr View Post
    Being honest is knowing the man and his family goes with out, while you profit at a later date.
    He offered to prove himself to you by showing up with the soft skills needed to get started. Isn't that enough?
    The need to offer you free labor comes from the soft job market, nothing more, nothing less.
    If you honestly think training is not worth the investment you would of never made your first step in the business either.
    There is no reason with the necessary skills and inherit risk to be a qualified hvac technician should not come with a living wage from day 1.
    Okay then....define "living wage"....He's obviously living on his wife's salary now.

    Interesting, that when a guy offers a reduced rate trial period to a potential employer....you see it as the employer taking some unfair advantage.

    It was offered, not asked for. And, as I stated earlier, while I will take him up on his offer, he will be paid accordingly.

    Because you may not be able to afford such an offer, that doesn't make him wrong for doing so. If I needed a job, I wouldn't hesitate to make an indentical offer.....not that I'm saying that YOU should, or have to......Everyone's circumstances, abilities, and confidence are not the same.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  11. #102
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    98
    I've seen this offer before...usually it works out for all parties involved. Just because he's offering to work for free doesn't mean he doesn't expect to be compensated. And just because the owner takes him up on it doesn't mean he plans to let the guy work free. As long as they make it through the first week together I have no doubts they will agree on a mutually profitable deal...

    For the record...I did something similar when I started here...over 7 years ago.

  12. #103
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    South central WI
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    Okay then....define "living wage"....He's obviously living on his wife's salary now.

    Kinda proves my point...you and I both know fuel is nearly $4 a gallon and going up..

    Interesting, that when a guy offers a reduced rate trial period to a potential employer....you see it as the employer taking some unfair advantage.

    Minimum wage is a law. Even internships pay a min. wage.

    It was offered, not asked for. And, as I stated earlier, while I will take him up on his offer, he will be paid accordingly.

    I am still playing devils advocate as mentioned in the first reply.

    Because you may not be able to afford such an offer, that doesn't make him wrong for doing so.
    My wife makes more than me so I understand the situation. Fiscally it doesn't sit well with me but it's the career path I choose. When a better offer is out there I will give my current employer a chance to pony up or I will walk. I'm not one to burn a bridge but I full know I am being taken advantage of due to weak economy.
    The more I learn the smarter I work.

  13. #104
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Charleston, Wv.
    Posts
    1,270
    I just want you all to know that this string is helping me a great deal as an individual "looking for work".

    I have been on both sides of the line as far as employer or employee......only in different fields than this. As an employee, I only want to be treated fairly and honestly......as an employer, I want the same things.

    I haven't had to do an interview for almost 15 years before Friday. From this string, I have learned that I must sell myself as someone that will have the company's best interest in mind...by being able to do my job 100% correctly, not having any excuses for my failures, and for owning everything I do, basically putting my name to every task I perform.

    I may not know as much as the next guy, but if I am honest about my knowledge/experience, my potential employer may be more willing to share thier knowledge with me.

    I must be 100% honest with my potential employer about my future goals, and where I expect myself to be in 1 year, 3 years, or 10 years.

    I had what I thought to be a great meeting with a potential employer the other day.....I applied all of these things to that informal interview, and think it went well. I may not be hired, but I can say without a doubt that if I am not, I have no regrets about what I've said I can bring to the table, nor do I regret giving them a possible timeframe for no longer bieng employed by them should I be hired.

    thanks again.....

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