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  1. #53
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    Because I know what not to do.

  2. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    Brush up on your reading comprehension and writing skills, then take another look at your statement(s)....and mine.

    You are blissfully making my "Factoid B" point for me. Most employees are clueless as to their real purpose in a business environment, which is why so many spend their lives angry, frustrated, and unfulfilled.

    In YOUR mind, you are there to look out for yourself, and screw the boss and the customer if need be, so long as you get "yours".....In a business environment, the employee is there to generate profit for the company. Period. Plain and Simple. While you may not realize or accept that...it is reality. If you aren't generating profit in some form for the company, you are a liability and serve no useful purpose.

    The truly good employee recognizes reality, and fully understands that if he generates profits for the company, his position is secure.

    Look around. Some guys stay happily at a job for decades.....while others move around every year and a half. There is a common theme for both.

    Perhaps YOU should look in the mirror, if you want to know WHO lacks in the reading comprehension department.

    Of COARSE I am looking out for MYSELF. You aren't? WHO do you think looks out for each of us OTHER than ourselves. Don't act like a ninny.

    I fully comprehend that the employee needs to make the boss a buck. I have NOT denied that. Not once. I have never said the employee SHOULD adopt the "screw you" attitude with the customer OR the boss. So, instead of putting words in my MOUTH, how about you READ what I have taken my time to write?

    Job security doesn't mean anything, if you can't thrive on your wages. Work the cash register at McD's for thirty years, and get back to me about how great job security is.....

    Now if you are about done obtusifacting, you want to answer the question I asked in my last post?

  3. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemind View Post
    Job security doesn't mean anything, if you can't thrive on your wages.
    Define "thrive" ?

    Some people can live on ten bucks an hour, and put money in their savings every payday.....while others making six figures a year never seem to have enough.

    Oh, and which question? And, by the way it's "obfuscate" or "obfuscating".....
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  4. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    Define "thrive" ?

    Some people can live on ten bucks an hour, and put money in their savings every payday.....while others making six figures a year never seem to have enough.
    Here, you answer these questons first. Or are you THAT afraid to admit that I am right?

    Do you AGREE or DISAGREE that an employee works to make money?
    OR do you live in fairytale land and belive they come to work for the ONLY purpose to make the boss a buck?

  5. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemind View Post
    Here, you answer these questons first. Or are you THAT afraid to admit that I am right?
    Of course they work to make money. I never said they didn't.

    But you obviously don't understand from a business standpoint, for their position to even exist in the first place, it must be profitable.....which if you read my "Factoid" post with proper comprehension in the first place....you would have understood.

    You've spent the better part of the day, fussing and fuming over something that you clearly did not understand or comprehend.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  6. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    Of course they work to make money. I never said they didn't.

    But you obviously don't understand from a business standpoint, for their position to even exist in the first place, it must be profitable.....which if you read my "Factoid" post with proper comprehension in the first place....you would have understood.

    You've spent the better part of the day, fussing and fuming over something that you clearly did not understand or comprehend.

    Ok. Now we MAY be getting somewhere.

    Your question was framed from YOUR viewpoint. Not that of the worker. I am the worker, not the owner. Your making a buck does not trump ME getting paid, in my point of view. My paycheck is absolutely priority one to me, and everyone else who is employed.

    Secondly, there is much more to factor, in the creation of a job, that simply IF an employee can make you a buck. YOU have to do your job and make sure there is even a need for the employee. You have to do YOUR job marketing your brand. You have to do YOUR part and make/keep customers happy.

    While I will agree, an employee sitting on his hands all day is not a profitable venture, there is more to the formula that just IF he is profitable to YOU. Sometimes it can simply boil down to YOU as a manager can't manage people worth a hoot. And if that is the case, the blame would lay on YOUR shoulders, not the worker. I have seen both sides of the coin. Lazy and incompetant workers, AND I have seen incompetant and useless managers. Bad managers ALWAYS blame those around them for their dismal failures, never owning ANY responsibility for their incompetance.

  7. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemind View Post
    Ok. Now we MAY be getting somewhere.

    Your question was framed from YOUR viewpoint. Not that of the worker. I am the worker, not the owner. Your making a buck does not trump ME getting paid, in my point of view. My paycheck is absolutely priority one to me, and everyone else who is employed.

    Secondly, there is much more to factor, in the creation of a job, that simply IF an employee can make you a buck. YOU have to do your job and make sure there is even a need for the employee. You have to do YOUR job marketing your brand. You have to do YOUR part and make/keep customers happy.

    While I will agree, an employee sitting on his hands all day is not a profitable venture, there is more to the formula that just IF he is profitable to YOU. Sometimes it can simply boil down to YOU as a manager can't manage people worth a hoot. And if that is the case, the blame would lay on YOUR shoulders, not the worker. I have seen both sides of the coin. Lazy and incompetant workers, AND I have seen incompetant and useless managers. Bad managers ALWAYS blame those around them for their dismal failures, never owning ANY responsibility for their incompetance.
    My viewpoint comes from a lifetime on both sides of the table. I've flipped burgers at Wendy's. I've also been a Plant Manager at a truck body manufacturing plant.

    In the HVAC trade, I've been an employee, a partner, and a sole proprietor.

    My viewpoint also comes from having a degree in Business Administration. I can look at our weekly P&L for each employee and see for fact, not opinion, whether a given employee was profitable for the last week.

    The bottom line here, IS the bottom line. For your position to exist, and continue to exist in any business environment, you must be profitable to the company. The smart employee knows that. The smart employee understands that performance, not excuses, gets the job done.

    If an entire company is not profitable, the responsibility lies with management. If an individual employee isn't profitable, while his peers and co-workers ARE....the problem lies with the employee.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your average length of employment with all of your employers combined?
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  8. #60
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    Interesting thread.... I have learned that your boss likes a positive response....

  9. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by knave View Post
    Interesting thread.... I have learned that your boss likes a positive response....
    I would think that goes without saying

    And, I would add, that it goes both ways...Employees like a positive response as well.

    I think it was a fair question in the OP. Spend some time in the Job Forums, and you see endless threads full of employees discussing their demands and expectations.....is it unfair for an employer to express their expectations as well?

    Put yourself as the guy interviewing a potential employee.

    Applicant A comes in and presents himself as a team player, that understands that a successful company is equal parts customers, management/ownership, and employees.....

    Applicant B comes in with a surly attitude, telling you what you're gonna do for him or "he walks".....his only concern is for his pay rate, vacation and holiday pay, and tool allowance.

    Any experienced/knowledgeable interviewer or interviewee knows, that compensation is typically among the LAST things discussed.....after both sides are acquainted and both sides feel that they have the right "fit" for the employment situation.

    Any employer knows.....that the guy who will leave his current job to come to work here, solely for compensation issues, will be gone down the road soon enough.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  10. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    My viewpoint comes from a lifetime on both sides of the table. I've flipped burgers at Wendy's. I've also been a Plant Manager at a truck body manufacturing plant.

    In the HVAC trade, I've been an employee, a partner, and a sole proprietor.

    My viewpoint also comes from having a degree in Business Administration. I can look at our weekly P&L for each employee and see for fact, not opinion, whether a given employee was profitable for the last week.

    The bottom line here, IS the bottom line. For your position to exist, and continue to exist in any business environment, you must be profitable to the company. The smart employee knows that. The smart employee understands that performance, not excuses, gets the job done.

    If an entire company is not profitable, the responsibility lies with management. If an individual employee isn't profitable, while his peers and co-workers ARE....the problem lies with the employee.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your average length of employment with all of your employers combined?
    I understand where your viewpoint comes from. Great. However, I think you miss alot of key points to what I am saying. I have seen many companies fall flat on their face in bankruptcy and just plain closing the doors, when the attitude you exude is brought to light. You may own the company, but you are far removed from doing all the work.

    All workers realize what it takes for a company to keep afloat and be sucessful. Prentending they are less than you, or are just stupid doesn't work in your favor. I bet you are even the kind of boss that pushes the "we are a team/family" mantra. Am I right? That montra is a fairy tale like the toothfairy.

    The bottom line IS, that it takes BOTH sides of the "team", to be profitable. Some people don't need much direction, others may. Even still, events such as managment createing a envoronment for a singled out employee to fail. You know, to get rid of them, for whatever reason. You quickly dimiss poor management skills when it is just one or a small few employees, as the employees fault. Truth be told, management hired them. Truth is, management directs the workforce. Truth is, it is managments job to keep the workforce in tip top shape, even if that means firing people who are useless. But in the end, it all rolls back downhill to the management. Ultimately, they hired the lazy and incompetant worker.

    As to you last question, it is simply none of your business. However, I will say I have been at this job for 7+ years. I am currently taking classes in HVAC, so I can start a career in it. I have put up with ALOT here, and I know in the end, it falls back on my shoulders for staying. However, I have no control how management behaves or does their job. There are some REALLY good people here, and I hope that I get an oppertunity to work for someone like them in the future. A boss like you appear to be, not so much. I have worked for your type in the past and current, and I must say, the one way road is getting old.

  11. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemind View Post
    I understand where your viewpoint comes from. Great. However, I think you miss alot of key points to what I am saying. I have seen many companies fall flat on their face in bankruptcy and just plain closing the doors, when the attitude you exude is brought to light. You may own the company, but you are far removed from doing all the work.

    Wrong. I drive a service truck every day. I run calls almost every day. I do virtually all of the scheduled sales calls. I am right in the middle of "all the work"....

    All workers realize what it takes for a company to keep afloat and be sucessful. Prentending they are less than you, or are just stupid doesn't work in your favor. I bet you are even the kind of boss that pushes the "we are a team/family" mantra. Am I right? That montra is a fairy tale like the toothfairy.

    You mean, like all of us going to lunch together almost every day? Or, when I pick up the tab on Friday?

    The bottom line IS, that it takes BOTH sides of the "team", to be profitable. Some people don't need much direction, others may. Even still, events such as managment createing a envoronment for a singled out employee to fail. You know, to get rid of them, for whatever reason. You quickly dimiss poor management skills when it is just one or a small few employees, as the employees fault. Truth be told, management hired them. Truth is, management directs the workforce. Truth is, it is managments job to keep the workforce in tip top shape, even if that means firing people who are useless. But in the end, it all rolls back downhill to the management. Ultimately, they hired the lazy and incompetant worker.

    You are correct in one regard. If I hired a jerk, it's my fault for hiring him. But it doesn't change the fact that he's an unproductive, unprofitable jerk.

    As to you last question, it is simply none of your business.

    But, of course....

    However, I will say I have been at this job for 7+ years. I am currently taking classes in HVAC, so I can start a career in it. I have put up with ALOT here, and I know in the end, it falls back on my shoulders for staying. However, I have no control how management behaves or does their job. There are some REALLY good people here, and I hope that I get an oppertunity to work for someone like them in the future. A boss like you appear to be, not so much. I have worked for your type in the past and current, and I must say, the one way road is getting old.
    I've read every one of your posts since you joined 3 months ago. You're a pretty easy "read".....A perpetual malcontent with all the answers, but you don't yet know the questions.....like your silly notion that employers "pick out someone to fail"....or your statement "it all rolls DOWNHILL to management".....It's easy to see why you're never happy in your work.

    You've let a farm incident from when you were 13 shape your entire life.

    Kinda sad.
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

  12. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Markl View Post
    I've read every one of your posts since you joined 3 months ago. You're a pretty easy "read".....A perpetual malcontent with all the answers, but you don't yet know the questions.....like your silly notion that employers "pick out someone to fail"....or your statement "it all rolls DOWNHILL to management".....It's easy to see why you're never happy in your work.

    You've let a farm incident from when you were 13 shape your entire life.

    Kinda sad.


    Heh heh. That incident when I was 13 was only an eye opener. Too many guys like you in the world that "know it all, seen it all, and been it all". I am shocked your head fits though the doorway.

    Funny, how a guy like you, thinks you know anything about me. If you had any hair on your chin, how about you come right on up here and work by my side for a day. You seem to lead yourself to belive that I am some sloth and a malcontent, but I will lay stakes that I can work you right into the ground.

    If you were as educated as you like to belive, you would realize that the statement that all of it begins and ends at management is nothing but truth. YOU are the captain of the ship. Blaming the first mate because you ran aground is just like a liberal saying that it's all the fault of the "man".

    My wife is from Texas, and I am happy she isn't full of hot air like you appear to be, John. Every interaction I have had with you, you always profess what you think as the end all of ANY discussion. Like you have the only answer, so any debate is over before it can even begin.

  13. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemind View Post
    Heh heh. That incident when I was 13 was only an eye opener. Too many guys like you in the world that "know it all, seen it all, and been it all". I am shocked your head fits though the doorway.

    Funny, how a guy like you, thinks you know anything about me. If you had any hair on your chin, how about you come right on up here and work by my side for a day. You seem to lead yourself to belive that I am some sloth and a malcontent, but I will lay stakes that I can work you right into the ground.

    If you were as educated as you like to belive, you would realize that the statement that all of it begins and ends at management is nothing but truth. YOU are the captain of the ship. Blaming the first mate because you ran aground is just like a liberal saying that it's all the fault of the "man".

    My wife is from Texas, and I am happy she isn't full of hot air like you appear to be, John. Every interaction I have had with you, you always profess what you think as the end all of ANY discussion. Like you have the only answer, so any debate is over before it can even begin.
    Tell you what....I look forward to the day you actually go into business for yourself, or with your cousin, or whatever.

    From the attitudes you've displayed toward employers on this forum, you're in for a RUDE awakening....You think having A boss is tough.....wait til you have a couple dozen of them....

    You think your employer doesn't care about anything except the bottom line......wait til you get a taste of working for the general public.

    And, when you're ready to hire, my guys all want to see what kind of work environment and benefits will be available at your shop, when it's YOUR money and profits that we're talking about.....

    P.S....I actually do have hair on my chin these days.....preparing for an upcoming role in "Fiddler on the Roof" at our local community theater...
    Technical incompetence is NOT a sales tool....

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