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Thread: Please help!!

  1. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanl View Post
    it sounds like I should just suck it up, get the necessary appliance (dehumidifier) and run it during the moist months like now.

    Am I right here?? Thanks again all!
    That sounds like some advice you need to listen to! Who said that, lol.

    Yes, this is the unit you should be looking at to solve your problems. Keep in mind, when your ambient dew point is less than 50 degrees, the outside air will provide most of the dehumidification you need. That will be a function of incorporating your fresh air ventilation with your dehumidification requirement.

    Look at it this way. Get the unit, tie it into your supply duct, and when you re-locate, you have the option to take it with you. Like Teddy Bear said, this is an all too common problem. Most builders either do not know or do not care about taking indoor air quality control to this level. Most homeowners just live to put up with the problems you are experiencing. It does create an unhealthy living environment. This line of thinking is still in its infancy anyways. Think about it, was just 60 years ago when a single light bulb hanging from the ceiling was satisfactory for room lighting. Look where we are now with illumination.

  2. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanl View Post
    Thank you very much for your reply Teddy Bear. You sound a lot like the engineer that the builder had sent over. I'm not saying that in a bad way either, if this does fall into my own fault and it's me that needs to make the necessary changes or add a dehumidifier or whatever, then so be it. I just didn't buy a brand new condo to have to deal with this kind of thing. I thought moving into a condo would be problem free, especially a brand new one. I would have thought that the design of the building would have addressed these kinds of things from the start. Since it's not the whole building that are suffering from this problem, then maybe it's just my bad luck that the end of the building that I'm in isn't getting as much fresh air as the rest.

    My main point in starting this thread was to figure out what the problem was, but also what to do about it. Whether I should be going after the builder for a deficiency or not. From what Teddy Bear states, and he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, as well as some of the other comments above...it sounds like I should just suck it up, get the necessary appliance (dehumidifier) and run it during the moist months like now.

    Am I right here?? Thanks again all!
    It is not your fault. Builders in general are not designing in fresh air ventilation and year around humidity control into the structure. In past years, most buildings leak enough during cold windy weather to clear the moisture. Now with more concern for energy and higher occupancy buildings like yours show signs of inadequate fresh air even during cold windy weather.
    Installing a small ventilating dehumidifier (like Ultra-Aire 70H) would be a solution to year around fresh air and spring/summer/fall moisture control. I would expect that your mechanical contractors to po-po the need for summer fresh air. They do not understand the need for fresh air to purge indoor pollutants and renew oxygen.
    You will "have to suck it up" insist on fresh air and damp season humidity control.
    We are not from the government and here to help you.
    You might start with cracking windows 1/4" in all of your rooms and operating your exhaust fans 24/7. The winter moisture problem should go away in a couple days. Than you can cut back on the fans and open windows to get what you want for moisture levels. Best to keep the fresh air moving like 50 cfm when occupied and dehumidify enough to get <50%RH during mild seasons. That is what the ventilaing dehu does.
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    It is not your fault. Builders in general are not designing in fresh air ventilation and year around humidity control into the structure. In past years, most buildings leak enough during cold windy weather to clear the moisture. Now with more concern for energy and higher occupancy buildings like yours show signs of inadequate fresh air even during cold windy weather.
    Installing a small ventilating dehumidifier (like Ultra-Aire 70H) would be a solution to year around fresh air and spring/summer/fall moisture control. I would expect that your mechanical contractors to po-po the need for summer fresh air. They do not understand the need for fresh air to purge indoor pollutants and renew oxygen.
    You will "have to suck it up" insist on fresh air and damp season humidity control.
    We are not from the government and here to help you.
    You might start with cracking windows 1/4" in all of your rooms and operating your exhaust fans 24/7. The winter moisture problem should go away in a couple days. Than you can cut back on the fans and open windows to get what you want for moisture levels. Best to keep the fresh air moving like 50 cfm when occupied and dehumidify enough to get <50%RH during mild seasons. That is what the ventilaing dehu does.
    Regards TB
    they guy should use some common sense here. Cracking a window is all well-and-good, but on a day like to day (In the NE) the ambient Humidity level is 90%+ outside. It's cold and raining (this weather sux) Sucking that moist air inside won't help. Wait til you have a nice cold sunny day with ambient humidity levels below 40%
    LOVE has four letters

    So does BEER, DEER,GUNS AND FISH

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    [ Cracking a window is all well-and-good, but on a day like to day (In the NE) the ambient Humidity level is 90%+ outside. It's cold and raining (this weather sux) Sucking that moist air inside won't help. Wait til you have a nice cold sunny day with ambient humidity levels below 40%
    Just checked on Rochester's dew point ATM... It's 39. Even though your humidity is 'high', when factoring in the 39 dew point, that air is dry when heated to 68 to 70 indoor temp. That ends up being 35% RH @ 68 DB or 32% RH @ 70 DB.

    Check out this neat link, and have some pshychrometric fun!

  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermojohn View Post
    Just checked on Rochester's dew point ATM... It's 39. Even though your humidity is 'high', when factoring in the 39 dew point, that air is dry when heated to 68 to 70 indoor temp. That ends up being 35% RH @ 68 DB or 32% RH @ 70 DB.

    Check out this neat link, and have some pshychrometric fun!
    that is cool, BUT!!! when the indoor dew point and humidity is high, wouldn't that have an impact on the over all Humidity level in the condo?
    LOVE has four letters

    So does BEER, DEER,GUNS AND FISH

  6. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    that is cool, BUT!!! when the indoor dew point and humidity is high, wouldn't that have an impact on the over all Humidity level in the condo?


    One other factor so desperately needs to be included.... The dry bulb. Key word about humidity, it is 'relative' of the dry bulb temperature.

    If the space is not heated to 68 or 70 DB, then the humidity would remain what the ambient is. Heat that air up, it expands, and the grains of moisture per lb of dry air decrease, reducing the humidity.

    The result is 'dehumidification' without using mechanical refrigeration to do it. It is a magic trick that I think you are beginning to see. I remember the very day I grasped the concept of dew point and how it relates to the 'thermodynamics' around us. I was free, free, free at last, lol.

  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermojohn View Post
    One other factor so desperately needs to be included.... The dry bulb. Key word about humidity, it is 'relative' of the dry bulb temperature.

    If the space is not heated to 68 or 70 DB, then the humidity would remain what the ambient is. Heat that air up, it expands, and the grains of moisture per lb of dry air decrease, reducing the humidity.

    The result is 'dehumidification' without using mechanical refrigeration to do it. It is a magic trick that I think you are beginning to see. I remember the very day I grasped the concept of dew point and how it relates to the 'thermodynamics' around us. I was free, free, free at last, lol.
    thats what I was getting at when I asked what he was heating with now, the process would go faster if he has a gas fired furnace, But being in a High rise condo I suspect he is heating and cooling with a Heat pump, I would guess a water source heat pump? I don't know? It would probably help dry the place out if he had a gas fired fireplace with a blower.

    it seems the warmer he gets the space the faster this will dry out, if he can get the dew point up to 55F, the space should dry out fairly quickly
    LOVE has four letters

    So does BEER, DEER,GUNS AND FISH

  8. #21
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    Hey! Where is my love? I said it first!


    Lol! Jk guys. TB is the resident humidity guru

  9. #22
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    Wow guys, so much amazing intelligence in this domain. I wish I understood more of it. I don't quite understand the numerical values and terms like ambient dew points, but what I have gotten from all of this is that I'm going to have to deal with it.

    I just looked at the unit you linked to Thermojohn, would I be able to install this myself?? Where would it go, inside on of my heating vents, cold air returns, ventilation ducts?? I"m assuming I could speak to someone in my area. How much do one of these costs, and can I find it at the big box stores like HOme Depot?

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanl View Post
    Wow guys, so much amazing intelligence in this domain. I wish I understood more of it. I don't quite understand the numerical values and terms like ambient dew points, but what I have gotten from all of this is that I'm going to have to deal with it.

    I just looked at the unit you linked to Thermojohn, would I be able to install this myself?? Where would it go, inside on of my heating vents, cold air returns, ventilation ducts?? I"m assuming I could speak to someone in my area. How much do one of these costs, and can I find it at the big box stores like HOme Depot?
    Have a professional install it, that way it will be warranted. If you go buy one and install it yourself and you screw it up, you may not have much recourse. we are not allowed to discuss pricing sorry
    LOVE has four letters

    So does BEER, DEER,GUNS AND FISH

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    Have a professional install it, that way it will be warranted. If you go buy one and install it yourself and you screw it up, you may not have much recourse. we are not allowed to discuss pricing sorry
    No problem, but being in Canada, is this a common unit to ask for, or look for, or can I call a HVAC company and ask for quotes for a specific name of appliance?

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermojohn View Post
    One other factor so desperately needs to be included.... The dry bulb. Key word about humidity, it is 'relative' of the dry bulb temperature.

    If the space is not heated to 68 or 70 DB, then the humidity would remain what the ambient is. Heat that air up, it expands, and the grains of moisture per lb of dry air decrease, reducing the humidity.

    The result is 'dehumidification' without using mechanical refrigeration to do it. It is a magic trick that I think you are beginning to see. I remember the very day I grasped the concept of dew point and how it relates to the 'thermodynamics' around us. I was free, free, free at last, lol.
    Lets slow down a little. The quantity of moisture in the outside air is grains per lb. of air. Dew point is the temperature when the air is 100%RH.

    An example is 40^F, with rain outside. 40^F, 90%RH, 38^F dew point, 35 grains of moisture per lb. of air.
    Warming the air to 68^F does not change the grains or the dew point. The %RH is reduced to 32%RH. The dew point and grains stay the same.
    As we slowly purge a home with this heated dry air, the materials in the home and air adjust. After a couple days without occupants, the air in the home will be settle to 32%. When occupancts enter the home expect the %RH to rise, depending on the amount of moisture they add and the moisture content of the fresh air.
    When the outdoor dew points are low, expect drying. When the outdoor dew points rise, expect the indoor %RH to rise.
    Usually adequate fresh air results in minor humidification during cold weather and dehumidification during weather with dew points +55^F.
    Does this make sense.
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    Lets slow down a little. The quantity of moisture in the outside air is grains per lb. of air. Dew point is the temperature when the air is 100%RH.

    An example is 40^F, with rain outside. 40^F, 90%RH, 38^F dew point, 35 grains of moisture per lb. of air.
    Warming the air to 68^F does not change the grains or the dew point. The %RH is reduced to 32%RH. The dew point and grains stay the same.
    Does this make sense.
    Regards TB
    OK, brakes applied.

    I understand that the dew point is the dew point, no matter what the dry bulb, or RH% the air is. If one is not 'removing' moisture, as in grains, out of the air, and dumping it somewhere via mechanical refrigeration, the dew point will remain the same. The magic in raising or lowering RH will be dependant on DB temperature.

    My perspective on the process is that when a certain volume of air with a certain content of moisture (grains) gets heated up, it expands. The grains of moisture still remain, but the volume of air is more since it was heated. The ratio of grains in that air has been reduced, but not removed, thus reducing or lowering the RH%.

    Is this the right way to look at it? I picture a balloon with a thimble full of water in it, and the air in it expanding and contracting in size due to differences in temperature. The water in the balloon remains the same volume, but never leaves.

    What I wrote in an earlier post was not entirely incorrect. Adding the correction in bold would improve the accuracy, I believe. Correct me if I am wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by thermojohn
    Heat that air up, it expands, and the ratio of grains of moisture per lb of dry air decrease, reducing the humidity.
    Let me know if I'm on the right track here.

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