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Thread: R22/410A

  1. #14
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    [/B][/QUOTE] You guys better start stocking up on R-22 in case there is no replacement for it there is a lot of equipment that uses R-22 and buy it while it is here and avalible i have allready bought 3 jugs of it and plan to buy more. [/B][/QUOTE]
    The prices for R-22 will go up, but they can go up quite a bit just to reach the price of R-410a. There is no replacement for it is just wrong and a scare tactic.

  2. #15
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    Originally posted by cde72
    There is no retrofit drop in refrigerant for HCFC-22 and as far as I know, none in research. To cross your fingers and hope that someone develops it is a waste of time. I have used RX-11 flush and it does a sufficient job to warrant using the lineset for HFC-410a. HFC-410a does have different operating pressures, is hygroscopic compared to HCFC-22, and operates with a different oil, but not much else is different. To make an informed decision, you really need to know that while HCFC-22 is being phased out just like all the HCFC's and the CFC refrigerants before it, HFC-410a is just a stop gap, it satisfies the requirement of zero ozone depletion, but it still has a global warming potential, and it has a questionable history of reliability due to installer ignorance. People don't like change, and HVAC techs REALLY don't like change. If it were my condo and I was going to be there for the next 20 years, HFC-410a would be my choice, probably with Carrier. If I were going to sell it in 5 years, I'd probably still choose HFC-410a, if I was selling it next year, then I would go with HCFC-22.
    Just my two cents.
    Check this out info@EmersonClimate.com

  3. #16
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    Originally posted by cde72
    There is no retrofit drop in refrigerant for HCFC-22 and as far as I know, none in research. To cross your fingers and hope that someone develops it is a waste of time. I have used RX-11 flush and it does a sufficient job to warrant using the lineset for HFC-410a. HFC-410a does have different operating pressures, is hygroscopic compared to HCFC-22, and operates with a different oil, but not much else is different. To make an informed decision, you really need to know that while HCFC-22 is being phased out just like all the HCFC's and the CFC refrigerants before it, HFC-410a is just a stop gap, it satisfies the requirement of zero ozone depletion, but it still has a global warming potential, and it has a questionable history of reliability due to installer ignorance. People don't like change, and HVAC techs REALLY don't like change. If it were my condo and I was going to be there for the next 20 years, HFC-410a would be my choice, probably with Carrier. If I were going to sell it in 5 years, I'd probably still choose HFC-410a, if I was selling it next year, then I would go with HCFC-22.
    Just my two cents.
    Check out this site:http://www.copeland-corp.com/

  4. #17
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    you don't have a link, but do you refer to this quotes?

    Field results have shown that R-410A units with Copeland Scroll compressors have nearly 30 percent lower failure rates versus existing R-22 units.

    R-410A units can reach the industry’s highest efficiency levels. This high efficiency, coupled with the chlorine-free R-410A refrigerant, results in an overall better environmental choice for residential a/c applications.

    R-410A scrolls offer sound advantages to other compressor technologies, typically operating 3 -4 decibels quieter than comparable R-22 models.

    An independent study reported that four out of five contractors prefer to sell R-410A to R-22 systems. The top two reasons cited for this preference were "an easier sale" (due to environmental and sound benefits) and "more profitable."

    Despite early concerns with applying HFC refrigerants and POE lubricants, no significant issues have been reported with R-410A systems or with Copeland’s R-410A compressors.

    R-410A products are now available through all major air conditioning equipment manufacturers, including Carrier, Trane, Lennox, Amana, Rheem, York and Nordyne.

  5. #18
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    The compressors are quieter due to a thicker shell,then may be needed ,that might not continue.

    The low failure rate is partly due to better installs ,after training for Puron/R410a ,that is mostly what should have been done when installing R22 systems.


  6. #19

    Talking

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by dash
    [B]The compressors are quieter due to a thicker shell,then may be needed ,that might not continue.

    OK, let me get this straight. You are posting that the 410-A compressor shell was designed with more thickness because R&D didn't know how thick it should be? And in the future, the 410-A compressor shell tolerances MAY change after....what?

    Can you please post the source for this information?


  7. #20
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by chillbilly
    [B]
    Originally posted by dash
    The compressors are quieter due to a thicker shell,then may be needed ,that might not continue.

    OK, let me get this straight. You are posting that the 410-A compressor shell was designed with more thickness because R&D didn't know how thick it should be? And in the future, the 410-A compressor shell tolerances MAY change after....what?

    Can you please post the source for this information?


    Source; Meetings with Copeland factory people.

    Tolerences for the scroll would be the same.

    Not tolerences but thickness of the outer shell and bearings may be less "robust" in the future ,if not from Copeland then from others.

  8. #21
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    nu 22 is a replacement for r22 dont forget r22 will not go out of production until 2020. if it were my condo I would flush lines and go back with 410a whether i was selling or not only issue I would be concerned with is proper size lines manufacturer of equip not an issue either all probably using copeland compressors you also may be eligable for rebate or tax break for high eff. units as for stockpiling r22 it doesnt matter you will still be legally responsible for taxes onit even if in inventory. people thought that same way about r12 to but it didnt workfor them. so why tie up your money for years better if you invest in stocks or bonds

  9. #22
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    Feb 2004
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    if the existing line set is properly sized and re-used for the conversion to r-410a equipment, after flushing the line set is there a test that can be performed to ensure all residual oils have been removed?

    IMO, if you want to change refrigerants, change the line set as well.

    also IMO, i would venture to guess there will be an approved drop-in replacement for r-22 in the future. whichever company produces it will hit a gold mine.

    one other question. how long will 410 be the industry standard before something else is developed?

  10. #23
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    Don’t know about a test. York has a memo from 01, that they do not recommend re-using the line set, but the correct size is more of a critical point. So, when you can replace it, you should do it. The drop-in replacement is already out from different manufacturers and it will not be that gold mine. I can imagine that the changeover to R-410a will be relatively quick. Europe does already go through this phase. They used R-407 and now R-410a after banning R-22. There are always many refrigerants tested at any time with a potential to replace a common used refrigerant in the future. Different interests push for different solutions, but it looks as R410a will be dominant for the near future. Nothing will last forever, look at R-134a, it will be replaced in cars in a very short period in Europe. There is always change in our world and the uses of refrigerants are no exceptions.

  11. #24
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    Hmm

    Unfortunately Bill, the lines are imbedded in the floor/ceilings and can not be changed. It's one of the disadvantages of condo living. If I had a "typical" set-up, I would replace the lines and then I would not hesitate to use a 410A system. If I go with carrier or trane I guess I better make sure those old lines are flushed out really good.

    Is flushing the lines a big job??

    Thanks,

    Vince

  12. #25
    Originally posted by tony82164
    Originally posted by vinced
    I am considering 3 HVAC replacement systems, AS, Carrier and Trane. One (AS) has a R22 a/c unit and two (Carrier & Trane) have 410a a/c units. The refrigerant and suctions lines are imbedded in the wall and ceiling (it's a condo unit) and can not be changed. The Carrier and Trane guy have told me they will flush the lines thoroughly before using the 410a and the AS guy recommends staying with R22.

    Any opinions on using 410a in existing, older lines?? Possible mechanical risks?? Would flushing the lines remove all of the old residue??

    Thanks,

    Vince D.
    I would stay with R-22 there is going to be a replacement refrigerant for it and you can change over to that freon after 2010 R-12 has been replaced with 134A freon.
    and dont buy 123a either that is going to be ended in 2020

  13. #26
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    Mar 2006
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    Albany NY
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    Quite frankly I wouldn't just do a "retrofit" and here's why, first 410a opperates at a higher pressure than r-22, r-22 evap-coils are only rated/tested to 150 psi, 410a runs 50-70% higher than r-22. Also if u read any retrofit for any system they will tell u if ur putting in a refrigerant that requires poe oil you have to flush the system to remove the mineral oil. Thats all well and good but what you have to watch out for is poe technically in a retrofit can only have 5% of the total oil charge be mineral oil. I don't care how much rx11 u put through the system u can get all that oil out of the evap coil. Also can't forget the txv.

    Better off with a whole new system to prevent headaches, carrier I know is making a 21 seer 2 stage residential condensing unit, go for the whole unit and the thing will pay itself off and hell u won't have to worry about ur evap coil as well.

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