R22/410A

[vinced]

I am considering 3 HVAC replacement systems, AS, Carrier and Trane. One (AS) has a R22 a/c unit and two (Carrier & Trane) have 410a a/c units. The refrigerant and suctions lines are imbedded in the wall and ceiling (it's a condo unit) and can not be changed. The Carrier and Trane guy have told me they will flush the lines thoroughly before using the 410a and the AS guy recommends staying with R22.

Any opinions on using 410a in existing, older lines?? Possible mechanical risks?? Would flushing the lines remove all of the old residue??

Thanks,

Vince D.

[amd]

The problem is oil incompatibility - have you ever completely removed oil from a surface in one go?

Not a technician - wait for other responses

[precise temperatures]

To be honest with you vinced, the flush is called RX-11, and I have not heard any horror stories just yet about it causing any problems. Then again, 410 is pretty new in the residential market and problems could arise after a couple of heating and cooling seasons with the equipment.

R22 units will be manufactured until 2010, after that manufacturers will not be able to produce units made with R22. R22 completely will be out of production in the year 2020. People like DuPont will not be able to manufacture R22 after 2020.

Now knowing all this information, what I would do is go back with R22. Let me explain why: The average heating and cooling system will last you maybe anywhere between 12 - 15 years. Some longer, some shorter. By the time you will need to replace it again, it will be right around the time R22 will be phased out of production. Hopefully within those 14 years, you will be moved out of that place and into a house where you don't have to worry about the lineset not being replaced. I hate to say it, but go back with R22 and let the future homeowner worry about converting over to R410. If there was a way to change the lineset then I would say to convert to R410, but I am a little sceptical about the RX-11 flush and if it is not done right then you will have a mess on your hands. Just my thoughts on the subject.

[tony82164]

Originally posted by vinced
I am considering 3 HVAC replacement systems, AS, Carrier and Trane. One (AS) has a R22 a/c unit and two (Carrier & Trane) have 410a a/c units. The refrigerant and suctions lines are imbedded in the wall and ceiling (it's a condo unit) and can not be changed. The Carrier and Trane guy have told me they will flush the lines thoroughly before using the 410a and the AS guy recommends staying with R22.

Any opinions on using 410a in existing, older lines?? Possible mechanical risks?? Would flushing the lines remove all of the old residue??

Thanks,

Vince D.

I would stay with R-22 there is going to be a replacement refrigerant for it and you can change over to that freon after 2010 R-12 has been replaced with 134A freon.

[cde72]

There is no retrofit drop in refrigerant for HCFC-22 and as far as I know, none in research. To cross your fingers and hope that someone develops it is a waste of time. I have used RX-11 flush and it does a sufficient job to warrant using the lineset for HFC-410a. HFC-410a does have different operating pressures, is hygroscopic compared to HCFC-22, and operates with a different oil, but not much else is different. To make an informed decision, you really need to know that while HCFC-22 is being phased out just like all the HCFC's and the CFC refrigerants before it, HFC-410a is just a stop gap, it satisfies the requirement of zero ozone depletion, but it still has a global warming potential, and it has a questionable history of reliability due to installer ignorance. People don't like change, and HVAC techs REALLY don't like change. If it were my condo and I was going to be there for the next 20 years, HFC-410a would be my choice, probably with Carrier. If I were going to sell it in 5 years, I'd probably still choose HFC-410a, if I was selling it next year, then I would go with HCFC-22.
Just my two cents.

[vinced]

It seems like Carrier has a better handle on the 410a situation than the other HVAC manufacturers. I do agree that "change" (in any profession) gets people a little nervous. We all like to stick to what we are comfortable with.

Thanks for your input and advice!!

Vince D.

[tostaos]

Originally posted by cde72
There is no retrofit drop in refrigerant for HCFC-22 and as far as I know, none in research. To cross your fingers and hope that someone develops it is a waste of time. I have used RX-11 flush and it does a sufficient job to warrant using the lineset for HFC-410a. HFC-410a does have different operating pressures, is hygroscopic compared to HCFC-22, and operates with a different oil, but not much else is different. To make an informed decision, you really need to know that while HCFC-22 is being phased out just like all the HCFC's and the CFC refrigerants before it, HFC-410a is just a stop gap, it satisfies the requirement of zero ozone depletion, but it still has a global warming potential, and it has a questionable history of reliability due to installer ignorance. People don't like change, and HVAC techs REALLY don't like change. If it were my condo and I was going to be there for the next 20 years, HFC-410a would be my choice, probably with Carrier. If I were going to sell it in 5 years, I'd probably still choose HFC-410a, if I was selling it next year, then I would go with HCFC-22.
Just my two cents.

There are HFC refrigerants to replace R-22 in any application. (NU-22 from ICOR is one) You will not have a problem with availability of refrigerant for a system you buy today.

[Edited by tostaos on 03-24-2006 at 08:22 AM]

[tostaos]

Manufacturers do not recommend reusing of R-22 line sets. Why spend all the money and have a system that will probably not last as long as it should?

[vinced]

Tost,

Let me get this straight. There is already a replacement for R22 on the market?? Manufacturers "suggest or recommend" that older R22 lines not be reused with 410A??

Vince D.

[dash]

http://www.410a.com

To read the myths.

Carrier has no problem using the old lineset IF they are the correct sizes.

PS We have installed hundreds of Puron systems with the old line sets.

[Edited by dash on 03-25-2006 at 04:11 AM]

[tostaos]

I am not an opponent of R-410a at all, but the promoters of the site of the link in the last post could tell you some myths as well.
Dash is correct, they have no problem to reuse the line set, but they do not recommend it either.
http://www.icorinternational.com/nu22-opening.html
R-417a has a 10% lower capacity than R-22 but higher efficiency.
R-422a for medium and low temperature has an improved cooling capacity and energy efficiency compared to R-22.
The pro of R-410a is that the compressors should last longer than their R-22 counterparts, when the system is correctly installed.

[dash]

Recommendation ? Depends on who you ask.

[tony82164]

Originally posted by cde72
There is no retrofit drop in refrigerant for HCFC-22 and as far as I know, none in research. To cross your fingers and hope that someone develops it is a waste of time. I have used RX-11 flush and it does a sufficient job to warrant using the lineset for HFC-410a. HFC-410a does have different operating pressures, is hygroscopic compared to HCFC-22, and operates with a different oil, but not much else is different. To make an informed decision, you really need to know that while HCFC-22 is being phased out just like all the HCFC's and the CFC refrigerants before it, HFC-410a is just a stop gap, it satisfies the requirement of zero ozone depletion, but it still has a global warming potential, and it has a questionable history of reliability due to installer ignorance. People don't like change, and HVAC techs REALLY don't like change. If it were my condo and I was going to be there for the next 20 years, HFC-410a would be my choice, probably with Carrier. If I were going to sell it in 5 years, I'd probably still choose HFC-410a, if I was selling it next year, then I would go with HCFC-22.
Just my two cents.

You guys better start stocking up on R-22 in case there is no replacement for it there is a lot of equipment that uses R-22 and buy it while it is here and avalible i have allready bought 3 jugs of it and plan to buy more.

[tostaos]

[/B][/QUOTE] You guys better start stocking up on R-22 in case there is no replacement for it there is a lot of equipment that uses R-22 and buy it while it is here and avalible i have allready bought 3 jugs of it and plan to buy more. [/B][/QUOTE]
The prices for R-22 will go up, but they can go up quite a bit just to reach the price of R-410a. There is no replacement for it is just wrong and a scare tactic.

[tony82164]

Originally posted by cde72
There is no retrofit drop in refrigerant for HCFC-22 and as far as I know, none in research. To cross your fingers and hope that someone develops it is a waste of time. I have used RX-11 flush and it does a sufficient job to warrant using the lineset for HFC-410a. HFC-410a does have different operating pressures, is hygroscopic compared to HCFC-22, and operates with a different oil, but not much else is different. To make an informed decision, you really need to know that while HCFC-22 is being phased out just like all the HCFC's and the CFC refrigerants before it, HFC-410a is just a stop gap, it satisfies the requirement of zero ozone depletion, but it still has a global warming potential, and it has a questionable history of reliability due to installer ignorance. People don't like change, and HVAC techs REALLY don't like change. If it were my condo and I was going to be there for the next 20 years, HFC-410a would be my choice, probably with Carrier. If I were going to sell it in 5 years, I'd probably still choose HFC-410a, if I was selling it next year, then I would go with HCFC-22.
Just my two cents.

Check this out info@EmersonClimate.com

[tony82164]

Originally posted by cde72
There is no retrofit drop in refrigerant for HCFC-22 and as far as I know, none in research. To cross your fingers and hope that someone develops it is a waste of time. I have used RX-11 flush and it does a sufficient job to warrant using the lineset for HFC-410a. HFC-410a does have different operating pressures, is hygroscopic compared to HCFC-22, and operates with a different oil, but not much else is different. To make an informed decision, you really need to know that while HCFC-22 is being phased out just like all the HCFC's and the CFC refrigerants before it, HFC-410a is just a stop gap, it satisfies the requirement of zero ozone depletion, but it still has a global warming potential, and it has a questionable history of reliability due to installer ignorance. People don't like change, and HVAC techs REALLY don't like change. If it were my condo and I was going to be there for the next 20 years, HFC-410a would be my choice, probably with Carrier. If I were going to sell it in 5 years, I'd probably still choose HFC-410a, if I was selling it next year, then I would go with HCFC-22.
Just my two cents.

Check out this site:http://www.copeland-corp.com/

[tostaos]

you don't have a link, but do you refer to this quotes?

Field results have shown that R-410A units with Copeland Scroll compressors have nearly 30 percent lower failure rates versus existing R-22 units.

R-410A units can reach the industry’s highest efficiency levels. This high efficiency, coupled with the chlorine-free R-410A refrigerant, results in an overall better environmental choice for residential a/c applications.

R-410A scrolls offer sound advantages to other compressor technologies, typically operating 3 -4 decibels quieter than comparable R-22 models.

An independent study reported that four out of five contractors prefer to sell R-410A to R-22 systems. The top two reasons cited for this preference were "an easier sale" (due to environmental and sound benefits) and "more profitable."

Despite early concerns with applying HFC refrigerants and POE lubricants, no significant issues have been reported with R-410A systems or with Copeland’s R-410A compressors.

R-410A products are now available through all major air conditioning equipment manufacturers, including Carrier, Trane, Lennox, Amana, Rheem, York and Nordyne.

[dash]

The compressors are quieter due to a thicker shell,then may be needed ,that might not continue.

The low failure rate is partly due to better installs ,after training for Puron/R410a ,that is mostly what should have been done when installing R22 systems.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dash
[B]The compressors are quieter due to a thicker shell,then may be needed ,that might not continue.

OK, let me get this straight. You are posting that the 410-A compressor shell was designed with more thickness because R&D didn't know how thick it should be? And in the future, the 410-A compressor shell tolerances MAY change after....what?

Can you please post the source for this information?

[dash]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chillbilly
[B]

Originally posted by dash
The compressors are quieter due to a thicker shell,then may be needed ,that might not continue.

OK, let me get this straight. You are posting that the 410-A compressor shell was designed with more thickness because R&D didn't know how thick it should be? And in the future, the 410-A compressor shell tolerances MAY change after....what?

Can you please post the source for this information?

Source; Meetings with Copeland factory people.

Tolerences for the scroll would be the same.

Not tolerences but thickness of the outer shell and bearings may be less "robust" in the future ,if not from Copeland then from others.