R22/410A

[chillerout1]

nu 22 is a replacement for r22 dont forget r22 will not go out of production until 2020. if it were my condo I would flush lines and go back with 410a whether i was selling or not only issue I would be concerned with is proper size lines manufacturer of equip not an issue either all probably using copeland compressors you also may be eligable for rebate or tax break for high eff. units as for stockpiling r22 it doesnt matter you will still be legally responsible for taxes onit even if in inventory. people thought that same way about r12 to but it didnt workfor them. so why tie up your money for years better if you invest in stocks or bonds

[billva]

if the existing line set is properly sized and re-used for the conversion to r-410a equipment, after flushing the line set is there a test that can be performed to ensure all residual oils have been removed?

IMO, if you want to change refrigerants, change the line set as well.

also IMO, i would venture to guess there will be an approved drop-in replacement for r-22 in the future. whichever company produces it will hit a gold mine.

one other question. how long will 410 be the industry standard before something else is developed?

[tostaos]

Don’t know about a test. York has a memo from 01, that they do not recommend re-using the line set, but the correct size is more of a critical point. So, when you can replace it, you should do it. The drop-in replacement is already out from different manufacturers and it will not be that gold mine. I can imagine that the changeover to R-410a will be relatively quick. Europe does already go through this phase. They used R-407 and now R-410a after banning R-22. There are always many refrigerants tested at any time with a potential to replace a common used refrigerant in the future. Different interests push for different solutions, but it looks as R410a will be dominant for the near future. Nothing will last forever, look at R-134a, it will be replaced in cars in a very short period in Europe. There is always change in our world and the uses of refrigerants are no exceptions.

[vinced]

Unfortunately Bill, the lines are imbedded in the floor/ceilings and can not be changed. It's one of the disadvantages of condo living. If I had a "typical" set-up, I would replace the lines and then I would not hesitate to use a 410A system. If I go with carrier or trane I guess I better make sure those old lines are flushed out really good.

Is flushing the lines a big job??

Thanks,

Vince

[outside rep]

Originally posted by tony82164

Originally posted by vinced
I am considering 3 HVAC replacement systems, AS, Carrier and Trane. One (AS) has a R22 a/c unit and two (Carrier & Trane) have 410a a/c units. The refrigerant and suctions lines are imbedded in the wall and ceiling (it's a condo unit) and can not be changed. The Carrier and Trane guy have told me they will flush the lines thoroughly before using the 410a and the AS guy recommends staying with R22.

Any opinions on using 410a in existing, older lines?? Possible mechanical risks?? Would flushing the lines remove all of the old residue??

Thanks,

Vince D.

I would stay with R-22 there is going to be a replacement refrigerant for it and you can change over to that freon after 2010 R-12 has been replaced with 134A freon.

and dont buy 123a either that is going to be ended in 2020

[3rdgenhvac]

Quite frankly I wouldn't just do a "retrofit" and here's why, first 410a opperates at a higher pressure than r-22, r-22 evap-coils are only rated/tested to 150 psi, 410a runs 50-70% higher than r-22. Also if u read any retrofit for any system they will tell u if ur putting in a refrigerant that requires poe oil you have to flush the system to remove the mineral oil. Thats all well and good but what you have to watch out for is poe technically in a retrofit can only have 5% of the total oil charge be mineral oil. I don't care how much rx11 u put through the system u can get all that oil out of the evap coil. Also can't forget the txv.

Better off with a whole new system to prevent headaches, carrier I know is making a 21 seer 2 stage residential condensing unit, go for the whole unit and the thing will pay itself off and hell u won't have to worry about ur evap coil as well.

[xv80satisfiedcust]

Vince,

A Trane dealer says when the R22 outdoor condensor (compressor) wears out (No R22 units after 2010), he does NOT recommend indoor coil (evaporator) be flushed & reused with R410a condensor. A commercial HVAC tech said it's ok (maybe depends on indoor coil type???). 3rdgenhvac's remarks (410 higher pressure etc) is one more reason I am leaning towards a Trane R22 (1.5 or 2 ton XB13). The Copeland website says 2 million scrolls sold. I'm sure they are good (quiet too). But, it reinforces R410a hasn't been around as long, like cde72's comments about "R410a questionable history of reliability". I hope to have a system with NO leaks and not need recharge (impossible?). Do you really plan to be in your condo 15 years from now?

[vinced]

Good question XV, I'm rehabbing the entire place so I figure I'll be there for the next 5 years or so. I would hate to use the 410A and then have some problems with the lines which are imbedded in the walls and ceilings. I do think the installers I have talked to will do an adequate job flushing the lines, but the pressure (psi) difference between the 2 refrigerants does have me concerned. The American Standard guy feels I should stick with the R22, Carrier and Trane feel that there should be no problem changing to 410A. All of the new equipment is labor and parts warranted for 10 years, if something happens to those lines it's all on me and getting those things replaced is going to be big buckeroos.

[markm0369]

Well there are a couple of items up for discussion here. before we get into those though, either one you go with if installed by some one who knows what they are doing will give satisfactory service for 10+ years with no more than routine maint.
Having said that, is there a drop in replacement for 22, yes, is it more expensive, also yes but has only been out for a few months and reg. 22 is still bieng imported so that is to be expected. nu22 is suppose to be a/an exact drop in replacement so no oil equiptment issues.
410a is a newer refrigerant, is more enviornmentaly friendly than reg 22 and does operate at higher pressures. can you re use the 22 line set if flushed. mfg say yes is pressure diff and issue.. no the same soft copper is pulled through (if new) for 22 and 410a installs dont know the burst pres of 3/8 copper but probably 2000 or so psi more than you'll ever put on it. coils must be matched to the outdoor unit irreguardless so no issue there
410a and poe oil is a more efficient refrigerant and has a bit higher heat tranfer ratio and poe is a very good lubricant it does have a very high affinity for water though. what does this mean if a system is installed and checked correctly, nothing as its a sealed system. if you got a leak however, it would be almost impossible to get all the water out.(not impossible but a long, expensive process, with many filter driers and a lot of vacuume) 410a also has a critical temp of 165. meaning it seperates its componets at that temp. they seem to recombine ok in the condensor, but what the long term effects are no one knows. 22 on the other hand has a critical temp of about 225, so no worries there. and once again if installed correctly should last more than long enough to get to gen 4 frfrigerants and seers. so go with who you like, either will give good service

[Advanced Response]

I got a question for anyone that has information about the supposed drop-in replacements for R-22..

Are any of the supposed drop-in replacements recommended by any manufacturer or compressor manufacturer?

Are any of the supposed drop-in replacements allowed to be sold yet in the US with approval from the EPA?

Are the supposed drop-in replacements a mix that leaks at the same rate that they can be topped off in case of a small leak or a shrader valve leak? Or must they be totally recovered and recharged from a vacuum?

What is the affect of the sensible and latent capacities if a drop-in is used in place of R-22? If differant what percentage of loss/gain on the sensible and latent capacities?

Do you know of any manufacturer that is currently working on a unit that is designed around the drop-in replacement or has one out on the market yet in the US?

Not trying to knock a drop-in but every drop-in that I have researched in the past had serious capacity issues or were two differant mixes which if a small leak happened would require total refrigerant recovery and recharge.. Any information you have I will surely listen..

Thanks
J

[xv80satisfiedcust]

On page 1, tostaos says:

There are HFC refrigerants to replace R-22 in any application. (NU-22 from ICOR is one) You will not have a problem with availability of refrigerant for a system you buy today.


If I remember reading the manufacturer website right, supposedly there were no capacity issues.

ICOR International NU-22

HOWEVER, that is their claim and I'm just a homeowner.

[xv80satisfiedcust]

Vince,

If you want to read more about your question about R22 linesets and whether to re-use with 410a, check out this thread. I stumbled on it while searching on HSPF.

The R22 / 410a lineset part starts on page 2 of the thread:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=70906

[vinced]

Thanks XV. I see you posted at 4:49 AM. Don't you go to sleep?

[xv80satisfiedcust]

Vince - I put in a contract for a system on Thursday and was working up a detailed post for the HVAC Talk pros' opinions in case I needed to request a change on Friday before the contractor orders the equip. I might ask on Monday about the XL15i upgrade cost. But, even if I don't, I still think I'll be happy. The NATE website says 100% of the techs at the contractor's company are NATE certified.

[NormChris]

It is not absolutely necessary to replace the lineset when replacing a 22 system with 410A. However,it is necessary to ensure that the lineset is correctly sized for 410A and is clear of most of the oil from the previous system.

For details on the differences between 22 and 410 read the following article.

http://www.bacharach-training.com/norm/410.htm

Norm

[tomsinex]

go with the r22 cause 41oa must be blazed.and i bet you there is many fitting in wall that will not last long at all if 410a is use.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by tomsinex
go with the r22 cause 41oa must be blazed.and i bet you there is many fitting in wall that will not last long at all if 410a is use.

Say what! Nobody should have been using soft solder on any system in the first place.

[tomsinex]

all the guys around here do it,me i blaze everything

[bzzline]

Most new 3ton 13seer units on up you will need you to change to a increase in line size.
chicken the sky is falling don't worry about stocking up on r-22 gas you will not never use.
Retro fit r-12 systems has showed us something will go in there and work better.

[micdundee]

here's what we're doing for an upstairs install. cut the old lines off where accessable ,up and down, flush and re-pipe with new. less to flush ,thereby a can of flush can clean better and you don,t have to worry about the dips (traps) in the horizontal portion. establish size first of course.