can't discuss pricing...
can't discuss pricing...
The condenser often has a factory installed drier, likely due to factoring in some measure of protection against installs where evacs and nitrogen purges were skipped. But it's not a panacea. If it were my house and I let it go this far I would want to see the installer return, recover the refrigerant, install a liquid line drier (using a nitrogen purge during brazing, and ensuring that the new drier is R410A refrigerant rated if that's what's in the system), evacuate the system down to 500 microns, weigh in the proper charge, and check for proper operation afterward.Quote:
I don't know. Is the process you're referring to supposed to remove all of the impurities in the line after brazing? Isn't there some kind of filter built in to the system that does this?
But that's just me. Especially after, with a bit of field mileage, you've seen more than your share of overcharged systems from installation forward, no nitro purges or evacs of linesets prior to charging, and no liquid line driers installed on a changeout...
...and you understand the consequences of each or all of those steps being skipped.
Overcharge = diminished efficiency and capacity/shortened life of compressor due to extra load and possible washing out of oil from compressor bearings due to liquid floodback
No nitro purge during brazing = debris left in system to clog metering devices or harm compressor windings
No evacuation = moisture and non-condensibles left in system that will diminish capacity and efficiency. Moisture reacts with refrigerant oil to form acids, which in turn eat at the insulation on compressor motor windings. Non-condensibles increase compressor head pressure and reduce efficiency while increasing power consumption.
I know firsthand of systems that were properly installed, evacuated, and charged that have lasted over thirty years on the original compressor with adequate maintenance. Those that are not are lucky to push ten, if that much, without compressor problems.
Compressors don't die, they're murdered.
I am surprised Trane is painting the case of that unit the same color as their builder models. It makes the top look funny.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shophound
If the installer said that he did this, is my asking him to return and do what you're indicating a reasonable request?Quote:
If it were my house and I let it go this far I would want to see the installer return, recover the refrigerant, install a liquid line drier (using a nitrogen purge during brazing, and ensuring that the new drier is R410A refrigerant rated if that's what's in the system), evacuate the system down to 500 microns, weigh in the proper charge, and check for proper operation afterward.Compressors don't die, they're murdered.
If he said he did it, you have no way from a homeowner's perspective to know if he's not being truthful in this instance. I would go on good faith at this point. I wrote what I did to demonstrate what can happen to a system if these procedures are not followed, and to vent my dismay at the fact that so many times, the procedure is ignored for the sake of speed or laziness.Quote:
If the installer said that he did this, is my asking him to return and do what you're indicating a reasonable request?
A homeowner shouldn't have to ride herd on an installing contractor to ensure the job is done correctly. On the other hand it is good for a homeowner to be a bit educated about his HVAC system so he can have a measure of informed expectation of what consists of a quality installation and system performance.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shophound
Like I said from the beginning, he does appear to be an honest person, even though his installers are sloppy. Plus, he has either fixed or is in the process of fixing all of the issues that everyone here pointed out to me, except for the larger A/H being on the smaller return duct, which Trane and swampfox seems to think will be fine. He even agreed to pickup the whole cost of the ceiling replacement.Quote:
If he said he did it, you have no way from a homeowner's perspective to know if he's not being truthful in this instance. I would go on good faith at this point.
And to top everything off he DIDN'T ask for a check after the unit was installed, but instead asked me make sure everything is working okay first. He said he would send me a bill later. He also said to hold back $500 of the payment until the ceiling, HP plate, and weatherproof conduit are installed. This sounds like a pretty good guy to me.
By the way, from what I understand the panel was removed when the refrigerant lines were brazed. I'm not sure how it was damaged. Perhaps they were doing some touch up work and didn't remove it the second time. Does this sound reasonable? Should I ask?
[Edited by kcrossley on 02-03-2005 at 11:37 AM]
It sounds to me like you caught the guy on one of his "bad" days and he's trying to kiss yer butt to make up for it. I bet that if you had not of come here to get some information and confronted him about the problems then the guy would of walked away with your money and not looked back. I've heard way too many installers say to their co-workers "hey, you can't see it from my house". Unfortunately it's companies like those that give other reputable companies a bad name.
Glad you "caught" him in the act and made sure that he repaired what was wrong. You are one of the lucky ones though, not often will you find a company that knowingly messes up that bad coming back to fix the mess ups. Usually they'll just look at you funny and act like you don't know what you're talking about because you're a homeowner.
Although I may not have said it in this thread, many thanks to all of the HVAC techs that participated in this dialogue. As a result of your willingness to share your thoughts, experiences, and knowledge, I was able to resolve most of the issues that were discussed.
Once all of the remaining work is completed, I'll repost pictures so you can see the results of your efforts. Thanks again for everything!
Now that is what I like...another satisfied customer..glad to be of help sir
I second frigetater's thoughts. Perhaps the installers of your system also grew a bit as well. One can only hope. :)
I find this discussion very interesting , as the system I had installed (16i)seems to have things wrong efficiency wise. output at closest register 80-82 at 30 outside other times good temp out say 90.
I have had the techs out they seem to get a reading across the coil of about 20 then say nothing is wrong.
Now my outside coil has ice on it every like stripes on a flag even after defrost. Does this indicate a dort of charge problem? I am going to ask about the notrogen too, it seems as if our problem is off and on.
i think the installing company think i am crazy.
maybe i am, thanks
Couple of observations. I think we can safely agree this is not an install to be proud of. I'll leave it go at that. Now I wasn't there, but I can tell you there was no nitrogen purge during brazeing and pretty much guarantee no micron gauge was involved either, because the nitrogen/proper vacuum man and the guy who prepped and brazed those lines are 2 different people. That's a long winded way to say that if it's R410A (yes?) that it's a safe bet that reliability issues will be experienced. In this case you can judge a book by it's cover. I wonder if somewhere down the line if Trane is going to have to pay for a compressor.
How do you know that?Quote:
Now I wasn't there, but I can tell you there was no nitrogen purge during brazeing and pretty much guarantee no micron gauge was involved either, because the nitrogen/proper vacuum man and the guy who prepped and brazed those lines are 2 different people.