Well the thread I was posting was closed but I had to say this to continue the union-non union debate, although I dont like it I hope to bring guys to realize a few things that may make them realize some things:
Oh I almost forgot, I was a business owner and my choice to go union or non-union was based solely on whether I wanted to make 25 percent profit or 40 percent. Non-union companies charge the same hourly rate, and don't try and BS me on this or try and argue. I belonged to all of the service groups across the US, went to all of the conventions and talked to union and non-union owners. When you get drunk and smoke $100 cigars together in the Hilton the truth comes out. They want average techs becuase the more they pay for them, the less they make. I had a guy, who I became friends with in CA told me a a convention once, the dumber they are, the more money I make. And on your GM and Chrysler quote, I didnt see too many of the big 3 car maker executive's struggling to pay bills because of the Unions. I guess if it is a shame to work in a factory and be middle class, your right they should make 30K a year and struggle. Damn this BS has me pissed off, per my previous post....This is all political Joe the retard plumber crap fed to us by media that somehow the Unions are killing everything. WAKE UP! We are ALL losing here. Unions didn't force these factories out of business, its just that the big 3 couldn't up and move to China without American having a **** fit. What killed this country is we have become a locust society. We dont make anything. Why is it in the 50's a factory worker could have his wife stay home, own a house a car, go on vacations and retire with some money to live on? Now what do we have??? Corporate greed and politics allowed companies to move and we still buy all of the stuff for what? So we can say, they don't make like they used to! I mean Lego's for my kid are frekin 30 dollars. They are the same as they were when I was a kid only 10 times as much and I can let my kid play with em because if he lick's them the lead paint from China will kill em! So again Union haters, if all the unions were gone then what, mysteriously the economy would bounce back and we would have this super working nation of non-slackers, allowing corporations to make money again and prosper.
hmmmm ....... just trying to stir stuff up huh :D
Well ....... that does sound like the union :rolleyes:
Non union automobile manufacturing plants in the United states are not in as bad a shape as the Union manufacturers are, that is due to legacy costs, GM is primarily a health insurance provider that happens to make cars.
Originally Posted by phoenixfitter
As far as your analogy of the 50's stay at home mother, that has nothing to do with Unions that is because the government taxes us on everything, it isn't corporate greed, it is the government taxing the working person to give it to the slacker.
Look at all the new taxes Obama is coming up with and all the money he is spending, if you Like Obama thank a Union member.
What does lead paint from China have to do with Unions??
I worked for GM from '77-'86 and I can tell you that the UAW is, in my opinion, worthless. They spent more time protecting drunks, drugies and slackers than they did on REAL grievances. I had a grievance filed on my job to get it reclassified, resulting in a 45 cent an hour raise plus back pay. Back pay alone amounted to about $4,500. As expected, the grievance got passed up through the ranks and finally became a negotiable item. Then a guy with 29 years seniority got caught stealing a thermus full of paint and got fired. Four dollars worth of paint and the guy was making about 40K!! In their ultimate wisdom, the union dropped my grievance and several others to get this MORON re-hired! So DO NOT tell me about the grand importance of the unions!
Business depends on productivity to help make a profit. At GM I was NOT allowed to work more than 35 seconds/minute. Just a bit restrictive to productivity don't 'cha think?? GOD knows, you can't expect a man to work an hour for an hour's pay!! Unions also promote mediocrity through the seniority system. Just because a guy has worked on a job 20 years does not mean he is more qualified than a new hire with training for that job!!
One of the biggest reasons business goes overseas is government. All of the restrictions and taxes placed on corporations makes it more attractive to relocate. Add to that a union not allowing full production or getting rid of those not wanting to work and it becomes fiscally unsound NOT to move! Profit is NOT a dirty word!!!
Unions can do good...They've lost their way and got greedy along the way.
IMHO whether its Union or Non Union it's all about putting food on the table and providing for the family. Although personally I'm pro Union, I'll be the third generation to be union. After seeing how the ratz around here install stuff I'd say Book-Training and on the job training is a must whether Union or Not.
And around here slackies are not welcome you'll be booted faster than you can say huh. So if you can't work and give an honest days work stay away from our union.
2nd Year Apprentice Local 441
Here's a link for you.
Read all the links and you will see why I feel that unions go TOO far.
The only problem with this statement is the word mysteriously, remove it and BINGO. Please let it happen so.
Originally Posted by phoenixfitter
Why is it that every time trade unions are brought up somebody has to bring in the UAW for comparison. THE UAW IS NOT THE SAME AS A TRADE UNION!!!!
A lot of people fail to realize that the unions contractors have CHOSEN to be union contractors. They can shut the doors and re-open non-union any time they want.
good point lash
For our friend bwally you seem to point out Obama as the main problem for taxes or the increase in taxes. You should take a better look before you speak, your country is in the middle of what I think is the biggest screw up ever "war on terror" and you can thank your good buddy GWB. How did he figure he was going to pay for that??
The money you people have spent on hunting down and killing so called terrorist you all could have had health care like us Canadians, but to pay for health care for all the slackers I guess is too socialist for bwally so just go out and spend money on bombs.
(this comment is not to take away from what the soldiers are doing I support them not the cause)
The canadian healthcare system is nothing to be proud of and you have no idea what it would cost to give all American's a socialized medical system like Canada has, the war in Iraq costs about 10-12 billion a month, socialized medicine will cost a lot more than that.
Originally Posted by coolestacman
You may want to do some research before you start running your mouth about things you know nothing about.
the biggest screw up ever was electing Obama.
I'll agree with that. :)
Originally Posted by bwalley
McCain isn't any better either.
Them be some great options we had. :o
Perhaps you should be the one to take a better look before speaking. The one we can thank for the "war on terror" is OSAMA BIN LADEN(sp?) not President Bush! In case you missed it... These "so called" terrorists MURDERED THREE THOUSAND people!!
Originally Posted by coolestacman
Ah yes! Canadian health care, the envy of the known universe! Having a bureaucrat, not a DOCTOR, decide which treatment is "cost effective" while you hurry up and die from your condition must be a great source of comfort to you!
One of the dumbest things I've ever heard is... "I support the troops, not the cause." Kinda like... I support President Obama, not his policies, or maybe... I support Canadians, not Canada. Thay ALL sound foolish too me!
Walley, FYI My cousin work for Honda at a plant in Ohio and they have been on 3 day weeks for 5 months and he is losing his house. And most of the workers there that hit that mysterious age of 45-50, if they cannot keep up with the quota the get bought out for a crappy buyout.
I am tired of some guys not getting it. I posted this on another thread: It drives me nuts that guys ask questions on here and someone always has to insult others to feel better. This was my merit shop co-workers. Seriously, if you all think that it the union versus non union your companies ought to have you drug tested cause your smoking something. Politics have made this a fight and the companies are the ones who decide who works and doesn't. If we have a POS tech, he doesn't work for us. If he is good he stays. The Union doesn't send us an endless supply of dipsh**s.
We all need to realize that with this economy and our uncertain future we all need to find better ways to help each other and preserve our trade before they find a way to outsource it to India or China.
And since I can make the claim that I have worked both, one thing I learned when I first made into the union was a one month history lesson on unions. We ALL i mean ALL would not have the opportunities we have today if the the workers 70-80 years ago did not stand up for workers rights. These were safety and health and it really had to suck back then. So if you don't like unions and it isnt for you, then fine. But just remember, there were many who died, yes died, fighting for the very laws and regulations that protect you today. Thats like saying to all the veterans today that we know you gave your life for our freedom, but now we have the military sucks ass and because their are some deadbeats and slackers in the military lets get rid of it cause I do not need it anymore. Again politics and big companies have put this as the disintegration of the industry.
And and a few little bits of information for you union experts. Why is it that Honda, Toyota, Miller Beer and other large all non-union companies always hire Union companies to do their Construction and Service work? I wish I could time warp you guys back to the early 1900's so you could experiance a full non union environment you so desire.