Compare Heat Pumps - Broan FT4BI iQ Drive vs.Trane XL20i

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Originally Posted by Florida Joy

Are you saying I somehow upset him so he doesn't want me as a customer and he's lying about "prior commitments"? Is that how HVAC contractors roll?

I don't know what I could have said to upset him.... maybe I asked too many questions and he could tell I already knew the "right" answers? He actually had all the "right" answers and I thought he could tell I was happy with all he was telling me, so I don't see why my questions would upset him. I thought he could tell I was genuinely interested in getting a Broan and becoming his customer. He took down my son's name and phone number at RE Michel and promised to call him for pricing on the equipment with the employee discount. Before he left, he said he'd email me the quote in a couple of days.

Damn... do all HVAC contractors want customers who just nod a lot and take everything in without saying a word?

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Yes, and no, I think most really want and try to do a good job, but if I can get 3 or 4 jobs booked in the same time it will take to book 1 particular customer who I feel is just "asking questions", well, then I'm moving on. That's not everyone's business model, and that's okay, my company does no residential work btw, we don't play in the bid war trenches, so maybe I'm biased. All A/C contractors are running a business though, so yes, salespeople and owners alike need to close work to eat and you go where the food is. What do I know though? I'm just a guy on a keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Florida Joy

Damn... do all HVAC contractors want customers who just nod a lot and take everything in without saying a word?

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Originally Posted by Krzyd

Yes, and no, I think most really want and try to do a good job, but if I can get 3 or 4 jobs booked in the same time it will take to book 1 particular customer who I feel is just "asking questions", well, then I'm moving on. That's not everyone's business model, and that's okay, my company does no residential work btw, we don't play in the bid war trenches, so maybe I'm biased. All A/C contractors are running a business though, so yes, salespeople and owners alike need to close work to eat and you go where the food is. What do I know though? I'm just a guy on a keyboard.

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If I was "just asking questions", why would I give HIM my son's name and work phone at RE Michel so he could get the discounted equipment cost for his proposal? If I was "just asking questions" to "bid shop" or to get.... what?... confirmation as to what equipment to buy?.... I would never get my son involved.

In my world, I'd never write off a customer for asking questions. I used to sell auto parts (retail) and I had many customers who wanted to know how I knew what they were buying was the right part. I never showed them the door and told them to go somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Florida Joy

If I was "just asking questions", why would I give HIM my son's name and work phone at RE Michel so he could get the discounted equipment cost for his proposal? If I was "just asking questions" to "bid shop" or to get.... what?... confirmation as to what equipment to buy?.... I would never get my son involved.

In my world, I'd never write off a customer for asking questions. I used to sell auto parts (retail) and I had many customers who wanted to know how I knew what they were buying was the right part. I never showed them the door and told them to go somewhere else.

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Those people came to you correct? Those same people generally bought the part then and there if, A)you had the part, and or, B)pricing was "in the ballpark". Even if they didn't buy right then, someone else is walking in the door right behind, HVAC is not retail. I'm not trying to be insulting, but this guy either blew you off, or truly has more work than he can possibly handle, not many contractors are in that position, if he was, you would never have seen him the first time. Again, what do I know? I'm just a guy behind a screen.

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Originally Posted by Krzyd

HVAC is not retail. I'm not trying to be insulting, but this guy either blew you off, or truly has more work than he can possibly handle, not many contractors are in that position, if he was, you would never have seen him the first time. Again, what do I know? I'm just a guy behind a screen.

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The more I think about it, and I'm just guessing, if he actually blew me off I think I know why.

He spent over 3 hours in my home with his young sidekick, doing his web site's "as advertised" FREE Whole House Check-Up, including Infiltrometer Blower Door Test, Air Leakage Evaluation, Electronic Air Flow Capture Hood, Air Flow Diagnosis, Infra-Red Thermal Imaging (cool camera), measuring outside and inside and windows, and completing Manual J block load calculations.

I think he was expecting to find a house that needed a LOT of "fixing" (i.e., money in his pocket), so when he considered how little he'd get out of me in modification work (house is pretty tight), and how little he'd make by selling me the equipment "at cost", he moved on to greener pastures.

Too bad for me, but I can see how that might happen and be in HIS best interests.

Also, my home is right at the southern boundary of his service area... quite a drive from his location. I had to extend the mileage on the Comfort Institute website to 75 miles when I did the search to even get his company to show up.... after the first two "local" guys turned out to be a waste of my time.

There is a 4th Comfort Institute member contractor listed at 99 miles from my location, but I'm NOT calling him..... I give up on Comfort Institute...... sorry jtrammel.

I am a broan dealer in Brevard county. I know the guys at the cocoa branch and would be able to work with them on giving you a quote.

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Originally Posted by Florida Joy

The more I think about it, and I'm just guessing, if he actually blew me off I think I know why.

He spent over 3 hours in my home with his young sidekick, doing his web site's "as advertised" FREE Whole House Check-Up, including Infiltrometer Blower Door Test, Air Leakage Evaluation, Electronic Air Flow Capture Hood, Air Flow Diagnosis, Infra-Red Thermal Imaging (cool camera), measuring outside and inside and windows, and completing Manual J block load calculations.

I think he was expecting to find a house that needed a LOT of "fixing" (i.e., money in his pocket), so when he considered how little he'd get out of me in modification work (house is pretty tight), and how little he'd make by selling me the equipment "at cost", he moved on to greener pastures.

Too bad for me, but I can see how that might happen and be in HIS best interests.

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No offense intended and no response required, this is just my opinion:

I would have walked too, and if he or his office would have asked the right questions, they probably wouldn't have come.

This industry is one of the last real trades left in america, where the quality of the install means everything. Most of us are NOT going to install someone else's "discount equipment". The ones that typically do install "anything you want" don't care about the install, only selling the job and worrying about the install later (or never)

In my younger days, if you wanted trane, I would get it. If you wanted York, I would get it. Today, I don't do that. With modern equipment, it is too much a hassle to deal with all the warranty,s, installation requirements, installation clearances, etc.

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Originally Posted by beshvac

I would have walked too, and if he or his office would have asked the right questions, they probably wouldn't have come.

Most of us are NOT going to install someone else's "discount equipment".

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I read your comments on my Droid and was ready to jump all over you for not reviewing the circumstances as I described them before hitting "reply". But when I went back through this thread, it appears I didn't make the circumstances as clear as I could have.

I need to clarify the issue of "discount equipment". I contacted this contractor through the Comfort Institute website as a "last report" in trying to get someone to quote me the RIGHT equipment based on what my house needs to make me comfortable. Other quotes I'd received were not based on Manual J or other testing and (because of this forum) I was so afraid of oversizing.

I had no idea what equipment he would recommend... no idea what brand he dealt with. Furthermore, I would never EVER consider getting my own equipment and trying to have someone install it. I know better than that!

Finally, my son may manage the RE Michel in Orlando, but that's his business. He lives in Seminole County and I live in Brevard County and we don't talk HVAC when I visit his family or they visit me, so I had no idea what RE Michel sells or doesn't sell. However, I did mention my son's employment when I told the contactor about the repairs my son had done for me "at cost" a few years ago.

After he spent 3 hours testing the house, he provided HIS recommendations based on Manual J..... HE offered two options in the Broan line. When he described the IQ Drive, I was quite impressed and very interested. He was to provide the quotes by email, but before he left, HE mentioned that Broan was sold by RE Michel, which is where he gets his equipment. HE offered to contact my son and get the equipment through his dealorship using my son's employee discount. He told me he ALWAYS does this for relatives of RE Michel employees.

So the "discount equipment" was HIS idea, not mine. I would have never known about this option and would have been just as happy to get his "regular" quote if he hadn't made the offer.

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Originally Posted by ddc-junkie

I am a broan dealer in Brevard county. I know the guys at the cocoa branch and would be able to work with them on giving you a quote.

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Are you iQ Drive certified?

I see you hold a CMC license (Certified Mechanical), not a CAC (Certified Air Conditioning). I'm not familiar with the CMC license... is that for service calls and/or ductwork only, or can you do AC installs under that license?

Also noted you don't have an * in your monicker, so I'm not sure you're allowed to post a response here.

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Originally Posted by Florida Joy

Also noted you don't have an * by your monicker, so I'm not sure you're allowed to post a response here.

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Very observant.

I'm going to send him a PM here shortly.

there is also an e-mail address in his profile that you can use to contact him.

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Originally Posted by SkyHeating

They rate them at 100% of capacity for AHRI numbers so they can get higher efficienies but they actually have a capacity that as stated is 118% of rated so it does give a 3.5 ton cooling capacity on a 3 ton unit. The efficiency drops below the 21 SEER rated at any point above 100% so it would work in this homeowners case.

I have installed the Frigidair iQ drive heat pump with their modulating gas furnace and the quality of it is NOWHERE near Trane but its a great product overall. Its been on the market longer than the other variable drive options and we installed the frigidaire system 2 or 3 years ago and have not had a problem at all with it.

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Keep in mind the "21 SEER" rating is at 82 degree outside and 80 degree inside temperatures. Yes a TWO degree difference between outside and inside temperatures. The EER rating is VERY different at a more typical 95 outside/80 inside 15 degree difference. If it's 95F outside and the system is running continuously on high speed (which it should be in most areas) the EER number is closer to what you are going to see in the real world. I didn't see EER published for either unit you are comparing but very few air to air units are capable of EER of over 14. A 14-15 SEER unit gets and EER of about 13. Not much real world improvement for the high end units when the temps start climbing. 16+ SEER units get their higher rating by "downsizing" during part load conditions to reduce cycling losses. Cycling looses can also be reduced by selecting smaller equipment if you're OK with house not meeting setpoint when temperature are over 95 outside. You can move heat generating activities to off peak times to help keep cool.

For the money you are talking about with the high end systems you may want to look at geothermal. EER on Geo units can exceed 20, a substantial improvement over air cooled units.

http://www.lacool.ws/SEER%20Tutorial.htm

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Originally Posted by 54regcab

For the money you are talking about with the high end systems you may want to look at geothermal.

http://www.lacool.ws/SEER%20Tutorial.htm

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In layman's terms, isn't geothermal really "water-to-air" cooling from buried piping filled with water? Not an option in my Florida neighborhood. Besides being impractical for my house built on a lakefront slab at just a little above sea level, water-to-air is not allowed by my HOA.

With all the utility company rebates and instant cash from the mfg., the price difference between the "Cadillac" and the "Kia" models in the Trane lineup is just a little over three figures, so I'm not sure the benefit of going with a lower SEER at this time.

BTW, thanks for the link! Very informative!

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Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm

Very observant.

I'm going to send him a PM here shortly.

there is also an e-mail address in his profile that you can use to contact him.

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Thanks! I just sent him an email.